<html><head><title>Re: [KS] Rhetoric of Hatred: the cornucopia of Korean 4LW's and the English polish..</title>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
</head>
<body>
<span style=" font-family:'Arial'; font-size: 12pt;">"I guess the question is, "Is this possibly the result of BAD TRANSLATION/POLISHING?" "<br>
<br>
I think you raise an important point. Some of the details (and occasionally even big issues) are indeed getting lost in translation, which is why I never rely on the English version, in particular when working with idiomatic expressions in both languages. A nice example is the Korean "Chwi Myòngbak" (쥐명박), which is a word game that is completely lost in the English expression rat-like Lee Myung Bak. My research on the use of titles for Kim Jong Il in KCNA reporting has shown that the English version often does not use the same titles as the Korean version, in particular Secretary General (ch'ongpisò) versus Great Leader (widaehan ryòngdoja), not to mention General (taejang, changgun), Supreme Commander (ch'oego saryònggwan) or simply Comrade (tongji). Bottom line: I'd be careful interpreting too much into the English versions of NK propaganda and rather check the original. At the end of the day, this is what the great successor himself might read and thus in all likeliness received his blessings.<br>
Best,<br>
Rudiger<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
on Mittwoch, 23. Mai 2012 at 09:57 you wrote:<br>
<br>
</span><table>
<tr>
<td width=11 bgcolor= #0000ff><br>
</td>
<td width=1008><span style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 12pt;">So, ultimately how much does this rhetoric of hatred add to or subtract from that universal <br>
consciousness that in toto constitute what is our life, even after we deduct the cost of the<br>
band-aid....<br>
<br>
Sorry to be directing a private response to your interesting posts. Following is just too much<br>
of a rushed jotting to post to the list. Nonetheless, I wanted to share some thoughts<br>
prompted by your interesting comments as well as the questions they prompted, some of which were<br>
answered by Mr Hoare's response...)<br>
<br>
These are indeed disturbing in the extreme? Blood curdling? Shocking? Somebody help me up?<br>
<br>
And what fascinating detective work, using frequency, intensity, and time-line to divine what might<br>
be going on in the heads and hearts of the NK elite.<br>
<br>
For all the rhetoric of hatred coming out of NK, it is precisely this cornucopia of linguistic infelicities<br>
that presumably are not being 'polished' by the native English speakers that capture the readers.<br>
<br>
So, is there a final polisher who is overriding the earlier polishing of the native speakers or are the<br>
native polishers simply pulled out of the loop in the final version that ultimately becomes the face<br>
of NK in the world media? Are they aware of the effect of "oddness" and "infelicity" produced by <br>
the rhetoric they are pushing out to the rest of the world in English? Could it be that this is precisely<br>
the "effect" they are after?<br>
<br>
West is not without its own inventory of invectives and choice curse words and yet such are almost<br>
never a part of the public discourse, and such phrasing would certainly be deemed "inappropriate" <br>
by every standard. Today even the "Axis of Evil" statement would be viewed as an "extreme" <br>
expression and "ultra-extreme" rhetoric by the West.<br>
<br>
Is one to conclude that the language of "discourse/rhetoric" is very much one of East is East and West is West,<br>
with the twain meeting being nearly impossible. This is how it would seem to stand.<br>
<br>
Now, Korean does have a modern tradition of "dressing down your opponents," even "a separate<br>
and very theatrical language of provocation," most often seen in staged version of confrontation between<br>
generals and gang leaders, where exchanges of belittlements and denigrations do achieve certain<br>
rhetorical artfulness. <br>
<br>
But these recognizably Korean rhetoric of hatred/provocations do not necessarily degrade to the <br>
less than artful and infelicitous blusters we find in the NK English versions. <br>
<br>
I guess the question is, "Is this possibly the result of BAD TRANSLATION/POLISHING?" <br>
<br>
Several other questions immediately pop into mind: The Korean version of tough-talking is today best<br>
seen in the West in the WWE(World Wrestling Entertainment) where the rhetoric of challenge-belittlement<br>
achieve their modern heights through the modern-day gladiators/rhetors on modern coliseums.<br>
<br>
Even closer, the living rooms of the West can revel in the near artistry of the malediction of Debra Morgan<br>
(</span><a style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 12pt;" href="http://dexter.wikia.com/wiki/Debra_Morgan">http://dexter.wikia.com/wiki/Debra_Morgan</a><span style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 12pt;">) and Lieutenant Doakes(</span><a style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 12pt;" href="http://dexter.wikia.com/wiki/James_Doakes">http://dexter.wikia.com/wiki/James_Doakes</a><span style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 12pt;">)<br>
weekly while following the adventures Dexter, our favorite angel of death.<br>
<br>
This is very different from the rhetoric of hatred we are seeing here. Does this have history? In the English<br>
as it circulates in the world media, is the origin even possibly English? I could almost imagine that such<br>
rhetoric of hatred was very rampant, Japanese directed against Americans, and the reverse...Has it developed<br>
and evolved? Is there directionality?<br>
<br>
Another question is: Are the Western students of Korean cued into the world of Korean malediction as part<br>
of their language training? We can call to mind the near-international-race-incident that happened because of<br>
the misinterpretation, according to one account, of all to common "네가 ...." <br>
<br>
JoobaiLee<br>
5/21/2012<br>
<br>
<br>
On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 8:32 PM, Kent Davy <</span><a style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 12pt;" href="mailto:kentdavy@me.com">kentdavy@me.com</a><span style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 12pt;">> wrote:<br>
Here's an interview with Paul White:<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><a style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 12pt;" href="http://www.nknews.org/2012/04/the-british-voice-of-kim-il-sung/">http://www.nknews.org/2012/04/the-british-voice-of-kim-il-sung/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<span style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 12pt;">On May 21, 2012, at 5:18 AM, </span><a style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 12pt;" href="mailto:jimhoare64@aol.co.uk">jimhoare64@aol.co.uk</a><span style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 12pt;"> wrote:<br>
<br>
I agree that KCNA did not seem to use polishers, The FLPH laid off the remaining foreign staff while we were there in 2001-02 and thereafter seemed to relay on Koreans - no doubt this explains the odd language. <br>
But even when they did employ foreign staff, the Korean staff would often override what the native speakers had suggested.<br>
On a slightly different note, what use would one make of photographs of such people if one had them? <br>
Jim Hoare<br>
<br>
<br>
<span style=" font-size: 10pt;">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Afostercarter <</span></span><a style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 10pt;" href="mailto:Afostercarter@aol.com">Afostercarter@aol.com</a><span style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 10pt;">><br>
To: koreanstudies <</span><a style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 10pt;" href="mailto:koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws">koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws</a><span style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 10pt;">><br>
CC: jsburgeson <</span><a style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 10pt;" href="mailto:jsburgeson@yahoo.com">jsburgeson@yahoo.com</a><span style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 10pt;">><br>
Sent: Sun, 20 May 2012 18:34<br>
Subject: Re: [KS] Foreign copy-editors and polishers in Pyongyang<br>
<br>
<span style=" font-family:'book antiqua'; font-size: 11pt;">Dear friends and colleagues,<br>
<br>
Scott raises the question of native speakers of English (etc)<br>
as copy-editors - also known as 'polishers' - in North Korea.<br>
<br>
Having in the past recruited at least two people for such roles<br>
- Michael Harrold, and the late Andrew Holloway </span></span><a style=" font-family:'book antiqua'; font-size: 11pt;" href="http://www.aidanfc.net/a_year_in_pyongyang.html">http://www.aidanfc.net/a_year_in_pyongyang.html</a><br>
<span style=" font-family:'book antiqua'; font-size: 11pt;">- this is a topic about which I'm curious, but not up-to-date.<br>
<br>
Michael, Andrew and others were hired by the DPRK<br>
Foreign Languages Publishing House (FLPH). The texts<br>
they worked on were mostly books, as best I recall.<br>
<br>
By contrast, I've never heard of KCNA using foreigners.<br>
My guess would be that they don't, given some stilted<br>
expressions and the odd mistake.<br>
<br>
For example, surely if a native English speaker were<br>
involved they would have recommended a different word<br>
- be it technical or colloquial - for "bottom hole" in the <br>
third sentence of the caption to the cartoon below.<br>
<br>
There are other linguistic infelicities here as well,<br>
not least the title. Either tear apart or tear to pieces,<br>
but not tear apart to pieces.<br>
<br>
(On the substance: In my article I likened doing the research<br>
for this to wading through sewage. You can see why.)<br>
<br>
- But back to polishers. FLPH still uses at least one, but he <br>
lives in Beijing. See an interesting interview with Paul White<br>
at Tad Farrell's ever more indispensable NKNews:<br>
</span><a style=" font-family:'book antiqua'; font-size: 9pt;" href="http://www.nknews.org/2012/04/the-british-voice-of-kim-il-sung/">http://www.nknews.org/2012/04/the-british-voice-of-kim-il-sung/</a><br>
<span style=" font-family:'book antiqua'; font-size: 11pt;"> <br>
Kind regards<br>
Aidan FC<br>
<br>
<span style=" font-family:'cambria'; font-size: 9pt;"><b>Aidan Foster-Carter<br>
</b><i>Honorary Senior Research Fellow in Sociology & Modern Korea, Leeds University, UK<br>
<span style=" font-size: 8pt;"> <br>
<span style=" font-size: 9pt;">E</span></span></i>: </span></span><a style=" font-family:'cambria'; font-size: 9pt;" href="mailto:afostercarter@aol.com">afostercarter@aol.com</a><span style=" font-family:'cambria'; font-size: 9pt;"> </span><a style=" font-family:'cambria'; font-size: 9pt;" href="mailto:afostercarter@yahoo.com">afostercarter@yahoo.com</a><span style=" font-family:'cambria'; font-size: 9pt;"> <i>W</i>: </span><a style=" font-family:'cambria'; font-size: 9pt;" href="http://www.aidanfc.net/">www.aidanfc.net</a><span style=" font-family:'cambria'; font-size: 9pt;"> <br>
<span style=" font-family:'book antiqua'; font-size: 11pt;"> <br>
<span style=" font-family:'cambria'; font-size: 9pt;">**************<br>
<span style=" font-family:'book antiqua'; font-size: 11pt;"> <br>
From </span></span></span></span><a style=" font-family:'book antiqua'; font-size: 11pt;" href="http://www.kcna.kp/2mb/eindex.html">http://www.kcna.kp/2mb/eindex.html</a><span style=" font-family:'book antiqua'; font-size: 11pt;"> (cartoon 5)<br>
<br>
<br>
</span>
<div align=center>
<span style=" font-family:'cambria'; font-size: 11pt;"><b>Tear Apart Lee Myung Bak to Pieces<br>
<br>
</b>The dirty hairy body of rat-like Myung Bak is being stabbed with bayonets. One is right in his neck and the heart has already burst open. Blood is flowing out of its filthy bottom hole. This is not too much to Lee as he committed only sordid acts of flunkeyism and treachery. And this is not all. It is the strong will and pledge of the army and people of the DPRK to tear apart Lee Myung Bak to pieces<span style=" font-family:'book antiqua';">.<br>
</span></span></div>
<div align=left>
<span style=" font-family:'book antiqua'; font-size: 11pt;"> <br>
_______________<br>
<br>
In a message dated 5/20/2012 11:27:17 GMT Daylight Time, </span><a style=" font-family:'book antiqua'; font-size: 11pt;" href="mailto:jsburgeson@yahoo.com">jsburgeson@yahoo.com</a><span style=" font-family:'book antiqua'; font-size: 11pt;"> writes:<br>
</span></div>
<table>
<tr>
<td width=958><span style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 12pt;">Thanks for the great article, Aiden! Did you have to put bandaids on your eye-balls after reading so much slashing, violent fulmination? <br>
<br>
Any chance you can dig up photos of some of the foreign devils who copy-edited this stuff in English? One wonders if they have PTSD by now; hopefully they were sharp enough to ask in advance to be paid in soju!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--- On <b>Fri, 5/18/12, Aidan Foster-Carter <i><</i></b></span><a style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 12pt; font-style: Italic; font-weight: bold;" href="mailto:Afostercarter@aol.com">afostercarter@aol.com</a><span style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 12pt;"><b><i>></i></b> wrote:<br>
<br>
From: Aidan Foster-Carter <</span><a style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 12pt;" href="mailto:Afostercarter@aol.com">afostercarter@aol.com</a><span style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 12pt;">><br>
Subject: [KS] (no subject)<br>
To: </span><a style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 12pt;" href="mailto:koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws">Koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws</a><br>
<span style=" font-family:'arial'; font-size: 12pt;">Date: Friday, May 18, 2012, 9:56 AM<br>
<br>
<span style=" font-family:'georgia'; font-size: 11pt;">Dear friends and colleagues,<br>
<span style=" font-size: 17pt;"> <br>
<span style=" font-size: 11pt;">Just to let you know that the new issue of <i>Comparative Connections<br>
</i>- the thrice-yearly online journal published by Pacific Forum-CSIS -<br>
includes what I think is the first full account and detailed analysis<br>
in English of North Korea's ongoing bloodthirsty fulminations<br>
against South Korea and especially its President, Lee Myung-bak.<br>
<span style=" font-size: 17pt;"> <br>
<span style=" font-size: 11pt;">In over 40 years of following North Korea, I've read tons of rich<br>
DPRK invective - but never anything as bizarre and nasty as this.<br>
(They don't much care for Park Geun-hye, either; for all that she<br>
dined with Kim Jong-il in Pyongyang less than a decade ago.)<br>
<span style=" font-size: 17pt;"> <br>
<span style=" font-size: 11pt;">In case of interest, this article is freely available to all at<br>
</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><a style=" font-family:'georgia'; font-size: 11pt;" href="http://csis.org/files/publication/1201qnk_sk.pdf">http://csis.org/files/publication/1201qnk_sk.pdf</a><br>
<span style=" font-family:'georgia'; font-size: 11pt;">The full issue, which as ever also has three further articles on Korea<br>
covering the two Koreas' relations with the US, China and Japan,<br>
can be accessed at </span><a style=" font-family:'georgia'; font-size: 11pt;" href="http://csis.org/program/comparative-connections">http://csis.org/program/comparative-connections</a><br>
<span style=" font-family:'georgia'; font-size: 17pt;"> <br>
<span style=" font-size: 11pt;">All good wishes<br>
Aidan FC<br>
<span style=" font-size: 17pt;"> <br>
<span style=" font-family:'cambria';"><b>Aidan Foster-Carter<br>
</b><span style=" font-size: 9pt;"><i>Honorary Senior Research Fellow in Sociology & Modern Korea, Leeds University, UK<br>
</i><span style=" font-family:'georgia'; font-size: 17pt;"> <br>
<span style=" font-family:'cambria'; font-size: 9pt;"><i>E</i>: <span style=" color: #0000ff;">afostercarter@aol.com<span style=" color: #000000;"> <span style=" color: #0000ff;">afostercarter@yahoo.com<span style=" color: #000000;"> <i>W</i>: </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><a style=" font-family:'cambria'; font-size: 9pt;" href="http://www.aidanfc.net/">www.aidanfc.net</a><span style=" font-family:'cambria'; font-size: 9pt;"> <br>
<span style=" font-family:'georgia'; font-size: 17pt;"> <br>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<span style=" font-family:'book antiqua'; font-size: 11pt;"> </td>
</tr>
</table>
<br><br>
</body></html>