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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>E-mails does not sound likely. Somebody’s
idea of a joke.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Before I start another hare, Don Kirk has
pointed out that I seem to think that it possible for journalists yo get visas
fro North Korea just by asking. I am sorry if I gave that impression. Of course
it is not easy and many are refused. But it is not impossible and many do go.
What annoyed the North Koreans was those who went and then reported on things
that they had not seen. The late Brian Baron of the BBC had been many times and
had done some pretty critical reporting but when he came in 2001 – and they
made a great effort to get him there – the story as carried included a
whole lot of archive footage about conditions that he had not taken, though he
talked as though he had, and they never invited him again.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>My real point was that it a clandestine
visit such as Mr Sweeney made will not give any more ‘real; insights than
those available to ordinary tourists - if the Korean Studies List will allow it,
see the attached picture from 2011 – most people who have been to
Panmunjom from the North will have something similar.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Mr Kirk is probably right that any danger
was exaggerated. But I would still contend that there is always some potential
for danger. In 2001, my wife and I and other diplomats went with a WHO/UNESCO
inoculation team to Haeju to carry out part of a joint venture program with the
DPRK government. After lunch, instead of staying in the hotel as instructed,
some of us went for a walk around the central square and up an alley. The
Koreans accompanying us panicked and sent our cars to collect us. We then stood
around for about 90 minutes while phone calls were made to Pyongyang and we
were warned that the whole program might be put off and that there might be
serious repercussions. The word from Pyongyang must have been favorable because
we were eventually allowed to carry on. In recent years, a colleague has been held
several times for taking photographs – something that never happened when
I was there. North Korea can be a frightening place, especially if you have
been fed a diet of two-way mirrors in bedrooms, listening devices everywhere
(North Koreans believe the latter, if not the former) etc. Given also the
unwillingness of the Tourist Organisation to allow contact with embassies –
in 2011 when I went as a tour leader we only got to the British embassy when
the MFA intervened – one can seem very isolated and vulnerable even if
behaving in a normal way. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Not a place to pretend you are in a spy
novel!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jim Hoare<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Koreanstudies
[mailto:koreanstudies-bounces@koreaweb.ws] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>kh<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 16 April 2013 10:10<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> don kirk<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> Jim Hoare; DavidMcCann; Korean
Studies Discussion List; Ruediger Frank<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [KS] BBC journalists
pose as LSE university students inNorthKorea</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Thank you for everybody who has responded to this thread. It has been a
very useful discussion, and informed my discussions with a number of
journalists yesterday. While the story will no doubt disappear in the next few
days, <i><span style='font-style:italic'>The Independent </span></i>has a
further twist in its edition this morning (alas, I think it is behind a
firewall, so I have not been able to find it on the web), under the title
'North Korea issues threats to students as BBC airs controversial documentary':<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>'An email sent to the students by a North Korean tourism official on
their return stated: "I warn you that I will make public to the
world… the lies made in the name of LSE students. I reserve the right to
make public and publish all personal data, including all your passports, to
demonstrate that while we have been direct and honest with you, you have broken
the DPRK law."'<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>The documentary, as many suspected it would be, was primarily tourist
videos and library materials. Sweeney stood out from the students in a way
that, as many of you expected, would surely mean that the North Koreans did
know exactly who he was.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>Keith Howard<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>Professor of Music,
SOAS, University of London. <a href="mailto:kh@soas.ac.uk">kh@soas.ac.uk</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>(+44)207 8984687
(O); (+44)7805 048801 (M)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'></span><br>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On 16 Apr 2013, at 01:36, don kirk <<a
href="mailto:kirkdon@yahoo.com">kirkdon@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Thanks -- Your experience was no doubt revealing. My own
trips have ranged from four nights to two weeks, that's it. (Was there for
12 days last summer.) You have no doubt had many varied encounters. I was
referring only to interaction with guide-minders on brief trips. They never
said anything to me that was revealing beyond the authorized briefings they
gave when looking at stuff, on the bus etc. Humanitarian workers, ranging
over broad areas, would have different impressions and experiences. You err
in thinking I or others would have no regard for the fates of guides and
their families. In my experience there was never any instance in which such
issues arose. Guides were always quite pleasant -- except when warning that
anyone who veered outside the group would be told to leave the country.
(They never came close to carrying out the threat.) I never heard of anyone
"extracting a confession from guides." Nor do I know of anyone
"with article written no matter what they see." My own articles
from last summer are accessible through links on the "hermit
kingdom" page of my website, <a href="http://www.donaldkirk.com">www.donaldkirk.com</a>.
A problem in writing them was there wasn't a lot to go on, but I did my
best with what I had. Another listee, Mr. Hoare, seems to think it's
possible to get a journalist's visa any time. These are difficult and in
most cases impossible to get. The AP in Pyongyang has been noteworthy
for writing soft non-critical stories. (Check out recent articles by Ethan
Epstein, The Weekly Standard, and a piece I did for 38North: <a
href="http://38north.org/2013/03/dkirk032213">http://38north.org/2013/03/dkirk032213</a>/.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Don Kirk<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Mon, 4/15/13, Frederic OJARDIAS <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><<a href="mailto:fojardias@hotmail.com">fojardias@hotmail.com</a>></span></i></span></b>
wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><br>
From: Frederic OJARDIAS <<a href="mailto:fojardias@hotmail.com">fojardias@hotmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [KS] BBC journalists pose as LSE university students in
NorthKorea<br>
To: "Korean Studies Discussion List" <<a
href="mailto:koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws">koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws</a>>,
"Ruediger Frank" <<a href="mailto:ruediger.frank@univie.ac.at">ruediger.frank@univie.ac.at</a>><br>
Cc: "Jim Hoare" <<a href="mailto:jim@JHOARE10.FSNET.CO.UK">jim@JHOARE10.FSNET.CO.UK</a>>,
<a href="mailto:BAKS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK">BAKS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK</a>, "Keith
Howard" <<a href="mailto:kh@soas.ac.uk">kh@soas.ac.uk</a>>,
"DavidMcCann" <<a href="mailto:dmccann@fas.harvard.edu">dmccann@fas.harvard.edu</a>><br>
Date: Monday, April 15, 2013, 10:24 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'>Dear Don,</span></font><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'>This is funny how you can show at the same time so
much interest for human rights in DPRK, and so little regard for the fate
of these North Korean guides and their families.</span></font><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'>You take great pride and legitimacy in your numerous
short trips to DPRK. But I can tell you one thing : I
lived approximately a year in North Korea (working for different
humanitarian organizations, in Pyongyang and in the countryside) and I know
how dangerous life can be for all the staff (drivers, guides,
translators, etc) who deal daily with us, foreigners. Some
disappear.</span></font><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'>"No shred of evidence", you say ? Ask
humanitarian workers. They will not agree with you. I saw real fear in
the eyes of some of our DPRK counterparts when something went wrong.
Working with us is dangerous.</span></font><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'>Brave journalists who go to DPRK one week (with their
article already written no matter what they will see), have fun, extract
confessions from their guides, escape their minders, take footage and put
at risks the life of the people they filmed (and their families) are not
much worth the regime they feel so superior to.</span></font><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'>Frederic Ojardias</span></font><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'>Radio France Internationale</span></font><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'>Seoul correspondant</span></font><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:
bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> don kirk <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:
bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Monday, April 15, 2013 8:34 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:
bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Korean Studies Discussion List ; Ruediger Frank
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:
bold'>Cc:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Jim Hoare ; BAKS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK ; DavidMcCann ;
Keith Howard <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:
bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Re: [KS] BBC journalists pose
as LSE university students in NorthKorea<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>This palaver is regrettable. There's no
shred of evidence any NKorean ever got into trouble for the shenanigans
of visitors -- the BBC mission having been one of many such ventures. I
ran into the same head guide for my visit in 2005 and again 2008. He
talked to me at some length. KNTO and Koryo Tours (the latter never
handled my visits incidentally) will go on as usual. Nobody's claiming
heroics -- nothing heroic about going there, very simple once you get the
visa. Visitors may be among the world's best protected people, shielded
from all harm while also shielded from seeing stuff they don't want seen.
Trips can be quite routine when you're led to some of the same
places every time, but they're the best one can do when the
place is closed to the kind of reporting one can do even in repressed
dictatorships.(No other country on earth compels visitors to line up in
front of statues of their deceased leaders, bow and place
flowers.) It's unfortunate some listees don't respect what the BBC,
and others, are trying to do. Some listees seem to place higher priority
on sensitivities about which they have no evidence than the need to
attempt, against odds, to convey a modicum of understanding to the rest
of the world.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Don Kirk<br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Mon, 4/15/13, Ruediger Frank <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><<a href="mailto:ruediger.frank@univie.ac.at">ruediger.frank@univie.ac.at</a>></span></i></span></b>
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From: Ruediger Frank <<a href="mailto:ruediger.frank@univie.ac.at">ruediger.frank@univie.ac.at</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [KS] BBC journalists pose as LSE university students in
North Korea<br>
To: "Korean Studies Discussion List" <<a
href="mailto:koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws">koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws</a>><br>
Cc: "Keith Howard" <<a href="mailto:kh@soas.ac.uk">kh@soas.ac.uk</a>>,
"Jim Hoare" <<a href="mailto:jim@JHOARE10.FSNET.CO.UK">jim@JHOARE10.FSNET.CO.UK</a>>,
<a href="mailto:BAKS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK">BAKS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK</a>, "don
kirk" <<a href="mailto:kirkdon@yahoo.com">kirkdon@yahoo.com</a>>,
"Morriss, Peter" <<a href="mailto:pete.morriss@NUIGALWAY.IE">pete.morriss@NUIGALWAY.IE</a>>,
"McCann, David" <<a href="mailto:dmccann@fas.harvard.edu">dmccann@fas.harvard.edu</a>>,
"Balazs Szalontai" <<a href="mailto:aoverl@yahoo.co.uk">aoverl@yahoo.co.uk</a>><br>
Date: Monday, April 15, 2013, 2:19 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Dear all,<br>
I find this behavior highly unethical and irresponsible, for a number of
reasons. <br>
In addition to the many points made already, let's not be too
self-centered. The feelings of LSE students and potential aid workers are
important, but one affected group we have ignored so far. There
were <u>North Koreans</u> responsible for that trip: folks from
KNTO (the tourism organization) and others. They will now, away from the
public eye and not protected by a Western passport, face allegations of
not having done their job properly. I have always been deeply annoyed by
the fact that such allegedly "heroic" behavior by Westerners -
seriosly, what can happen to us in the worst case? - is taking place at
the expense of those nameless people who are left behind in NK and who
will have to bear all the wrath of the regime. We talk about human rights
in NK and so on in our Sunday speeches, but in fact we don't give a
bloody damn about the people there. This is disgusting.<br>
Besides, the NK state has also been lied to. Such behavior enforces
stereotypes about Westerners who cannot be trusted. Not that anyone would
care, but I wanted to at least mention that.<br>
Great, good job. And all that for stuff (I suppose) that I and 1000
others have filmed again and again before? Wow.<br>
I have decided not to give any interviews to BBC anymore. Well, they'll
survive. <br>
Prof. Rudiger Frank, Vienna<br>
PS: I forgot the tour operator, most likely Koryo tours. Their business
is not going to get easier. But why should the BBC care? It's in the holy
name of truth (about others), isn't it. Collateral damage, so what.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
on Sonntag, 14. April 2013 at 22:15 you wrote:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I trust that some list members have heard of the
lead news story today on the BBC, about three BBC journalists who
accompanied students from the LSE – under the disguise of
themselves claiming to be students. A BBC spokesman has claimed that to
film the documentary (due to be broadcast tomorrow), it was worthwhile
putting students at risk (Can this be right? – it was what their
spokesman said on Radio 4 this afternoon). <br>
<br>
See: </span></font><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22144667"
target="_blank"><font face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial'>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22144667</span></font></a><font
face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial'>.<br>
<br>
I would be interested in colleagues' reactions. <br>
<br>
Prof. Keith Howard<br>
SOAS, University of London<br>
Thornhaugh Street, London WC1H 0XG, UK<br>
</span></font><a
href="http://us.mc1623.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kh@soas.ac.uk"
target="_blank"><font face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial'>kh@soas.ac.uk</span></font></a><font
face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial'>; 0207 8984687; 07805 048801</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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