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Hi Everybody, Ciao Aidan,<br>
<br>
well I doubt we'll ever find official statements from PUST (let
alone Nafec) about dealing directly with the KPA, although some
pictures of its opening ceremony clearly showed that aside the usual
representativs from the Party and the MOE, the army was there. The
official PUST/nafec version is always this: The Lord empowered them
to go on up to this point, and that the DPRK (through the MOE) has
been wise enough to concede them full freedom & power to run the
University. <br>
<br>
Now, I still want to be optimistic about PUST (as well as all other
projects of knowledge share - my whole research is about this), but
it is undeniable even from the BBC footage that security knows when
to intervene and they can tell even Dr. Kim what he can and cannot
talk about. Given that the military is everywhere in NK I'd be
rather surprised if the KPA was not involved at all in PUST.<br>
<br>
On the syllabus, I am sure you know, in the past 5-7 years or so, NK
students have had the chance to apply for overseas studies a number
of times (in Australia and Europe mainly), to try and enter standard
western programs, for Masters' and Bachelor degrees. None of those
chances did ever materialize however, not because they lacked funds
or anything, but because the students all scored very poorly on
pre-entrance tests, performed in NK, usually through a foreign
embassy. <br>
<br>
Some were the very same 'elite students' that go to PUST. The cream
of the crop. Mind you, as every lecturer will be able to confirm,
their English skills are really good, and so are their computer
skills. And every specialist who has worked on training North
Koreans will tell you that students are incredibly motivated and
hard-working (much more than in the South, just to make a
comparison), but the severe restrictions on both the educational
contents and its applicability hinder their progress.<br>
<br>
As of today, there is little or no context there in which they can
apply what they learn in class. The best option they have is to go
and send students for educational tours in emerging countries in
South East Asia as they have been doing for a while. If they were to
visit big companies or central banks in, say, Germany, they wouldn't
know what to do with it, because back home there is no frame of
reference for that. <br>
<br>
And about the students knowing who runs it, I can't name my sources
but I am pretty confident the students have no idea where the money
for that university came from, what Nafec is and so forth. Sure they
know who Dr. Kim is: 'the very kind gentleman who has been entrusted
by their government to run the Uni.'<br>
<br>
The point for PUST, I've written about it in the past, is this: PUST
(and other schools as well, with the help of foreign partners)
should make a leap forward, starting to run bridge programs. NK
needs to be integrated into the global system. Its educational
curricula and degrees need to be integrated within one of the major
systems in place today (either the EU or UK or US, one of them).
However that would require NK to adapt programs to world standards
and start teaching history, sociology, working rights, human rights,
and to open their universities to full gender equality.... I am
afraid the KPA would step in pretty quick at that point.<br>
<br>
So far, their 'MBA' is good in NK and maybe (and that's a big maybe)
in China. Anywhere else, it's just a piece of paper, because as of
today no western school is able to assess the validity of NK
teaching, the professor's training and methodology, the study
credits, or make a comparison with western programs and therefore
recognize any degree issued in N. Korea. <br>
<br>
Sure their last educational reform is a step forward (it does bring
the educational system closer to the SK one) but they still have a
lot to do. I really would like to see PUST, as many other
educational activities in NK, succeed. It could save their lives in
the future. But they have a long way to go.<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
G. Spezza-NK news<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 07/02/14 09:20,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Afostercarter@aol.com">Afostercarter@aol.com</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:3d712.7c719aa8.4025e34f@aol.com" type="cite">
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<div><em><font size="3">Sorry for a small typo in my last post.
A corrected version is below.</font></em></div>
<div><em></em> </div>
<div><font size="4">Gianluca raises some important questions
here. Two thoughts:</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">1. <u>Military</u>. What exactly is the
evidence for the KPA's alleged role in PUST?</font></div>
<div><font size="4">If they built it, that would be no surprise;
they build many things.</font></div>
<div><font size="4">If generals send their sons there, no
surprise either; indeed the</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Panorama programme said as much.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">But if they in any sense run it, that is
another question. Or to be precise,</font></div>
<div><font size="4">is it being claimed that the DPRK
counterparts with whom PUST must </font></div>
<div><font size="4">liaise </font><font size="4">are military,
rather than Party or the education ministry?</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Does PUST itself have any statement on this?</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">2. <u>Syllabus</u>. I would put it a bit
differently. On the sciences side, I do</font></div>
<div><font size="4">wonder what exactly PUST is adding, given
that the DPRK's own</font></div>
<div><font size="4">universities are heavily science and
technology-oriented already. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">What surely is distinctive, as seen in the
programme, is the business</font></div>
<div><font size="4">major. As I understand, this is North
Korea's first MBA. And as we saw,</font></div>
<div><font size="4">you can't begin to teach in those areas
without raising and confronting</font></div>
<div><font size="4"> matters well beyond the </font><font
size="4">scope of official DPRK discourse.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">Finally, we know of old that under
totalitarianism people live a double</font></div>
<div><font size="4">life, and are very skilled at it - including
of course showing no trace of it.</font></div>
<div><font size="4">I would be amazed if any PUST student was
unaware of who is running</font></div>
<div><font size="4">their school and why. But it was rather
juvenile, and a bit irresponsible,</font></div>
<div><font size="4">for Panorama to keep prodding in the hope of
getting somebody to</font></div>
<div><font size="4">go off-message on camera. Of course they
wouldn't do that.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">I remain a net optimist regarding PUST.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">Cheers</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Aidan FC</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops:
120.0pt 180.0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Cambria; COLOR: black"><font
size="3">Aidan Foster-Carter<o:p></o:p></font></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops:
120.0pt 180.0pt"><font size="3"><i
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Cambria; COLOR: black">Honorary
Senior Research Fellow in Sociology & Modern <st1:country-region
w:st="on">Korea</st1:country-region>, <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Leeds University</st1:city>,
<st1:country-region w:st="on">UK</st1:country-region></st1:place></span></i><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Cambria; COLOR: black;
mso-ansi-language: EN-US" lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops:
120.0pt 180.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Cambria; COLOR:
black"> </span></i><span style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt;
FONT-FAMILY: Cambria; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops:
120.0pt 180.0pt"><font size="3"><em><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Cambria; COLOR: black">E</span></em><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Cambria; COLOR: black;
mso-bidi-font-style: italic">: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="mailto:afostercarter@aol.com"
href="mailto:afostercarter@aol.com"><font
color="#0000ff">afostercarter@aol.com</font></a><span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="mailto:afostercarter@yahoo.com"
href="mailto:afostercarter@yahoo.com"><font
color="#0000ff">afostercarter@yahoo.com</font></a><span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span><em><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Cambria">W</span></em>: <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="http://www.aidanfc.net/"
href="http://www.aidanfc.net/"><font color="#0000ff">www.aidanfc.net</font></a><span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops:
120.0pt 180.0pt"><font size="3"><i
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Cambria; COLOR: black">Skype</span></i><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Cambria; COLOR: black">:<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Aidan.Foster.Carter
<span style="mso-tab-count: 2"> </span><em><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Cambria">Twitter:</span></em><span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>@fcaidan<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div><font size="4">________________________</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">
<div><font size="3">In a message dated 06/02/2014 22:35:08
GMT Standard Time, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Afostercarter@aol.com">Afostercarter@aol.com</a> writes:</font></div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><font
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color="#000000"
face="Arial" size="2"><font color="#000000"
face="Cambria" size="4">
<div><font size="3">So already a fruitful debate
begins. I hope it continues.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="3">I was curious as to what in
particular had depressed Frank.</font></div>
<div><font size="3">The BBC programme? Or PUST itself?
Or both?</font></div>
<div><font size="3">Others' responses so far vary on
this point.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="3">For my part, I'm not entirely
depressed about either.</font></div>
<div><font size="3">It seems to me a net gain, and
amazing, that PUST exists at all.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="3">As for the programme, it could
have been worse (Sweeney!)</font></div>
<div><font size="3">- though also much better. <em>Why
on earth did no one ask</em></font></div>
<div><em><font size="3"><u>why</u> the students are
all male?</font></em></div>
<div><em></em> </div>
<div><font size="3">And while I'm being a big softie,
imho Caroline is a bit</font></div>
<div><font size="3">hard on the late great sad MJ:
also a victim. But she</font></div>
<div><font size="3">has the DPRK's British fan-club on
her side:</font></div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="http://juche007-anglo-peopleskoreafriendship.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/old-and-new-lies-bbc-panorma-educating.html"
href="http://juche007-anglo-peopleskoreafriendship.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/old-and-new-lies-bbc-panorma-educating.html"><font
size="3">http://juche007-anglo-peopleskoreafriendship.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/old-and-new-lies-bbc-panorma-educating.html</font></a></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><em><font
size="3">... the people of the DPRK are
better off without the degenerate </font></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><em><font
size="3">whooping and screeching sounds of
Michael Jackson!</font></em></p>
</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="3">Cheers</font></div>
<div><font size="3">Aidan FC</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
</font></font></blockquote>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4">___________________</font></div>
<div>
<div>In a message dated 06/02/2014 22:35:36 GMT Standard Time,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:spezzagianluca@gmail.com">spezzagianluca@gmail.com</a> writes:</div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
transparent" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="2">yes
Nicholas,<br>
<br>
actually no need to believe it. it's a fact the KPA is
involved in PUST. they built it from scratch, they run
most of the facilities if not all of them, they do the
maintenance, they send some of their children there
(others go to a couple of special military institutions in
PY, pretty much as well equipped as PUST), and given that
every single bit of educational material is scrupulously
checked before it reaches the classrom, we know this is
also done by part of the military. <br>
<br>
I agree with Caroline that some of the questions in the
doc were a bit dumb (seriously, michael jackson ...of all
people?) but then again that is BBC panorama. They do have
the urgency to proclaim they found some 'incredible story'
behind everything, like the students going to the 'juche
building' to receive classes in politics, ideology and
history. that has been happening since 1948 in NK, in
every school, not much news there. Also such practice is
one of the pillars on which Dr. James Kim built his
agreement with the NK government (just as he did in China
for YUST): zero interference with politics/absolute lip
service to the ruling government, and it could not be
otherwise or the school would have never seen the light.
<br>
<br>
However, this works for non-sensitive subjects, such as
computer science, agriculture or chemistry, it is clear
that students remain behind on many important topics:
economy, private finance, individual rights, history,
media, and this all makes their education less valuable
(some say useless) outside of North Korea. <br>
<br>
The real question for me is how long can PUST continue to
teach in such a sealed-off environment and is it really
worth it in terms of 'positive change for the future of
North Korea and its integration with the rest of the
world'? <br>
<br>
We'll probably see very skilled agronomists and
statisticians in NK in the next years , who still won't
know how life really goes on outside of their country.
What's the point?<br>
<br>
Last, one question i would have liked to ask (but I know
it can't be asked, even off the record) is: do students
at PUST know about how the university came about, who
funds it and who founded it and what is the story behind
the Christian foundation that owns and runs PUST and
YUST)? <br>
<br>
I know the answer is 'no' (and this has been confirmed by
all the PUST-related people i have interviewed), because
it would be very hard to explain the that their government
allowed a religious foundation, with HQs in US and SK to
run one of the top schools in the country.<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
G. Spezza - NK News<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 06/02/14 15:35, levi
nicolas wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1391693733.73296.YahooMailNeo@web171304.mail.ir2.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande,
sans-serif; COLOR: #000; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff">
<div>I'm probably feeling more depressed than Frank
Hoffman.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY:
HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial,
'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0);
FONT-STYLE: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">I
also do believe that the KPA is involved in the
management of the PUST. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:
HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial,
'Lucida Grande', sans-serif">
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY:
HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial,
'Lucida Grande', sans-serif">
<div dir="ltr">
<hr size="1"> <font face="Arial" size="2"><b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">De :</span></b>
Caroline Norma <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="mailto:cazzpeta@hotmail.com"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:cazzpeta@hotmail.com"><cazzpeta@hotmail.com></a><br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">À :</span></b>
Korean Studies Discussion List <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="mailto:koreanstudies@koreanstudies.com"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:koreanstudies@koreanstudies.com"><koreanstudies@koreanstudies.com></a>
<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Envoyé le :</span></b>
Jeudi 6 février 2014 14h24<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Objet :</span></b>
Re: [KS] Pyongyang Univ of Science & Tech
(PUST) on BBC1 TV, Mon 3 Feb, 2030 ...<br>
</font></div>
<div class="y_msg_container"><br>
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<div>
<div dir="ltr">Yes, a truly awful
documentary, but the scene where the
student points out the factory owner would
have to give up ownership, and that was
the 'problem' with the task assigned, was
at least one bright moment. And how
appropriate that the presenter asked the
class whether they knew who Michael
Jackson was--the biggest symbol of
decadent, paedophilic, drugged up western
social decline anyone could think of. It
was almost a relief they had no idea.
<div>Many thanks for forwarding the link.</div>
<div>Caroline Norma<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<div id="yiv8219851806yqtfd82822"
class="yiv8219851806yqt8215164628">
<div>> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014
10:21:55 -0800<br clear="none">
> From: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="mailto:hoffmann@koreanstudies.com"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:hoffmann@koreanstudies.com">hoffmann@koreanstudies.com</a><br
clear="none">
> To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="mailto:koreanstudies@koreanstudies.com"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:koreanstudies@koreanstudies.com">koreanstudies@koreanstudies.com</a><br
clear="none">
> Subject: Re: [KS] Pyongyang
Univ of Science & Tech (PUST) on
BBC1 TV, Mon 3 Feb, 2030 ...<br
clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
> Dear Aidan -- sure, can amplify
and magnify, quantify and objectify,
<br clear="none">
> but it shall just be another
stultifying experience. That is not
needed.<br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
> Frank<br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
> On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 09:47:50
-0500 (EST), <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="mailto:Afostercarter@aol.com"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:Afostercarter@aol.com">Afostercarter@aol.com</a>
wrote:<br clear="none">
> > Frank, this has to be your
shortest post ever.<br clear="none">
> > Care to amplify?<br
clear="none">
> > <br clear="none">
> > Best<br clear="none">
> > Aidan<br clear="none">
> > <br clear="none">
> > __________________<br
clear="none">
> > <br clear="none">
> > In a message dated
05/02/2014 12:34:30 GMT Standard
Time, <br clear="none">
> > <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="mailto:hoffmann@koreanstudies.com"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:hoffmann@koreanstudies.com">hoffmann@koreanstudies.com</a>
writes:<br clear="none">
> >> <br clear="none">
> >> How depressing.<br
clear="none">
> >> <br clear="none">
> >> Regards,<br
clear="none">
> >> Frank<br clear="none">
> >> <br clear="none">
> >> <br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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