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<DIV><FONT size=4>Fools rush in....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Dare I ask whether any of this fascinatimg thread bears at
all</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>on North Korea's language reforms? - since these
include</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>reinstating initial ㄴand ㄹ(eg Nyongbyon, Ryugyong
etc).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Pyongyang's edict naturally encompassed Chongryon
too.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Since most Koreans in Japan hail geographically from
southern</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Korea, I'm </FONT><FONT size=4>told it was awkward to
remember that from now on</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>suddenly you were no longer Yang, say, but Ryang.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Cheers </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Aidan FC</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: 120.0pt 180.0pt"><B
style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Cambria; COLOR: black"><FONT size=3>Aidan
Foster-Carter<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: 120.0pt 180.0pt"><FONT
size=3><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Cambria; COLOR: black">Honorary Senior Research Fellow in
Sociology & Modern <st1:country-region w:st="on">Korea</st1:country-region>,
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Leeds University</st1:City>,
<st1:country-region
w:st="on">UK</st1:country-region></st1:place></SPAN></I><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-FAMILY: Cambria; COLOR: black; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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size=3><EM><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Cambria; COLOR: black">E</SPAN></EM><SPAN
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color=#0000ff>afostercarter@aol.com</FONT></A><SPAN
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color=#0000ff>afostercarter@yahoo.com</FONT></A><SPAN
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style="FONT-FAMILY: Cambria">W</SPAN></EM>: <A title=http://www.aidanfc.net/
href="http://www.aidanfc.net/"><FONT
color=#0000ff>www.aidanfc.net</FONT></A><SPAN
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</SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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size=3><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Cambria; COLOR: black">Skype</SPAN></I><SPAN
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style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Aidan.Foster.Carter <SPAN
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</SPAN><EM><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Cambria">Twitter:</SPAN></EM><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>@fcaidan<SPAN
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</SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>__________________</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/03/2014 12:31:17 GMT Standard Time,
hoffmann@koreanstudies.com writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2
face=Arial>Apologies -- just now noted that there is a logical inconsistency
in my <BR>thought as presented in the last posting:<BR><BR>Let me
rephrase:<BR><BR>*If* Professor Ledyard's assumption is correct (the ㄴ tended
to be <BR>dropped in both, the Korean vernacular and Sino-Korean), then this
<BR>means a generic change of pronunciation in southern Korea that can be
<BR>seen independent of strengthening nationhood trends.<BR>*If*, however,
Professor Sasse's note is correct that that this was a <BR>phenenomen in
Sino-Korean terms only, then we could hypothetically link <BR>that to generic
changes in what we might call pre-modern <BR>nation-building
developments.<BR><BR><BR>Frank<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>On Tue, 11 Mar 2014 01:18:09
-0700, Frank Hoffmann wrote:<BR>> Werner Sasse wrote:<BR>>> I should
have said more precisely: "this problem arises only <BR>>> in Sino-Kor
words in contemporary Korean as spoken in South Korea."<BR>> <BR>> Gary
Ledyard's point was different. QUOTE:<BR>>> I'm pretty sure that the
process of dropping ㄴ(and also ㄹ) did not<BR>>> originate in
Sino-Korean. Rather it must surely have started in<BR>>> ordinary
vernacular Korean speech.<BR>> <BR>> These are *both* interesting
assumptions.<BR>> As a convinced non-linguist, I am again intrigued by the
question that <BR>> this brings up about script, culture, and POSSIBLY even
pre-modern and <BR>> modern state formation. This last point is, agreed, a
quite a bold and <BR>> ambitious hypothesis (depending on the answer to the
above).<BR>> To simplify the question: <BR>> *If* Professor Ledyard is
correct and this late Chosŏn period "trend" <BR>> of dropping the initial ㄴ
(and ㄹ) did not discriminate between pure <BR>> Korean and Sino-Korean,
given that the Chinese pronuciation of 年 (in <BR>> THIS example) was/is
nien in Chinese and that Koreans *emulated* that <BR>> Chinese
pronunciation by trying to get close (as they did with all <BR>> other
characters also) by pronouncing it more or less like nyŏn 년, and <BR>> if
in the later Chosŏn period they started to drop the initial n ㄴ, <BR>> then
is this not an indication of a "Koreanization" of Sino-Korean that <BR>>
comes exactly at the same period we see nationalization trends in art <BR>>
and literature? Pre-17th century painting styles, for example, are hard
<BR>> to differentiate from Chinese ones, but that changes in the later
<BR>> Chosŏn period, some styles take on a more distinctive Koreanness.
<BR>> As I said, this is a very bold assumption -- a thought I would
<BR>> appreciate to get your feedback on. So, before you raise your hands,
<BR>> this is indeed no more than a thought and a question by someone only
<BR>> interested in getting the tasty juice out of linguistics (while I
<BR>> happily leave the squeezed skin to you).<BR>> <BR>>
Best,<BR>> Frank<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
--------------------------------------<BR>> Frank Hoffmann<BR>>
http://koreanstudies.com<BR><BR>--------------------------------------<BR>Frank
Hoffmann<BR>http://koreanstudies.com</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>