[KS] RE: Koreanstudies Digest, Vol 17, Issue 7

Thu Nov 11 13:34:19 EST 2004

On this fascinating discussion of the Independence Gate. . .
	A couple of things.  I think the year that the Tongnimmun was moved was 1979, not 1997, when the moved was necessitated by the project that built the Kumhwa Tunnel and connected it to the Sajik tunnel. 
The other thing is the fact that the Arch has the Taegukki chiseled on both sides, outward and inward, and though I don't know of any effacing of it that happened during the Japanese occupation, I still think it's odd what I've always heard, that it was the one place in Korea that the Japanese allowed the Korean flag to be displayed. The Independence Club was big on promoting use of the Taegukki and used it on the masthead of the Tongnip sinmun.
	Those venerable sources of Seoul historical lore, Seoul Past and Present and Discovering Seoul (RAS, 1969 and 1986), don't agree on the year of the Yongunmun, whether 1537 or 1539.  My father, in Seoul Past and Present, wrote that the pillars of the Yongunmun was moved to the south side of the then-location of the Tongnimmun in 1934.  I would imagine that the pillars were moved along with the Tongnimmun in 1979.  My copy of the picture encyclopedia entitled Sajinuro ponun tongnip undong, volume 1, page 47, shows the Yongunmun in the process of being taken down, photo dated November 21, 1896.
Donald N. Clark 

-----Original Message-----
From: Koreanstudies-bounces at koreaweb.ws [mailto:Koreanstudies-bounces at koreaweb.ws] On Behalf Of Koreanstudies-request at koreaweb.ws
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 11:10 AM
To: Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws
Subject: Koreanstudies Digest, Vol 17, Issue 7

Send Koreanstudies mailing list submissions to
	Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://koreaweb.ws/mailman/listinfo/koreanstudies_koreaweb.ws
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	Koreanstudies-request at koreaweb.ws

You can reach the person managing the list at
	Koreanstudies-owner at koreaweb.ws

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Koreanstudies digest..."

<<------------ KoreanStudies mailing list DIGEST ------------>>

Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Independence Gate (Tongnipmun) during Japanese Colonial
      Rule? (Peter Schroepfer)
   2. Re: Independence Gate (Tongnipmun) during Japanese Colonial
      Rule? (Peter Schroepfer)
   3. Re: Independence Gate (Tongnipmun) during Japanese Colonial
      Rule? (Andrei Lankov)
   4. Re: Independence Gate (Tongnipmun) during Japanese Colonial
      Rule? (Gary Rector / Yu)
   5. Re: Independence Gate (Tongnipmun) during Japanese Colonial
      Rule? (Kirk Larsen)
   6. Re: Independence Gate (Tongnipmun) during Japanese Colonial
      Rule? (K-Flexx)
   7. Independence Gate (Tongnipmun) (Leonid Petrov)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:56:28 +0900
From: Peter Schroepfer <schroepfer at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [KS] Independence Gate (Tongnipmun) during Japanese
	Colonial Rule?
To: Korean Studies Discussion List <koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
Message-ID: <88b1460404111020561fadb458 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

>The Independence Arch was moved from the site where the Sungsan
highway passed by in 1997.

I've read this sentence several times and do believe I'm still
misreading something or need to doubt my eyes, but if it means
Tongnummun/Dongnimmun was moved, turned around, or in any way adjusted
in 1997 it just can't be accurate, as anyone who has lived in Seoul's
downtown neighborhoods in the last few decades can tell you. Obviously
it was moved at some point in history, and surely someone on this
listserve will be able to clarify when.

Also, anyone who has gotten a close look will have noticed that next
to it stands a smaller arch which clearly says Yônginmun, intended to
welcome visiting Chinese emissaries. So even if that one was
"destroyed in February 1895" (and I don't know that to be inaccurate)
then obviously part of it still stands or was rebuilt, which would
surprise me. Yônginmun is tiny, so I can imagine there might have been
more to it at one point.

Kirk Larsen, myself, and the many others who do not have the wrong
impression that Tongnimmun was a declaration of independence from
Japan probably still wonder what the Japanese thought of the monument.
I can see the Japanese wanting to keep it there, frankly, given how
the "independence" was in relation to China, but it would be
interesting to hear about any Japanese references to it during
colonial times.

Peter Schroepfer.

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:01:11 +0900
From: Peter Schroepfer <schroepfer at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [KS] Independence Gate (Tongnipmun) during Japanese
	Colonial Rule?
To: Korean Studies Discussion List <koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
Message-ID: <88b14604041110210110c2e78b at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

> next
> to it stands a smaller arch which clearly says Yônginmun, intended to
> welcome visiting Chinese emissaries. So even if that one was
> "destroyed in February 1895" (and I don't know that to be inaccurate)
> then obviously part of it still stands or was rebuilt, which would
> surprise me. Yônginmun is tiny, so I can imagine there might have been
> more to it at one point.

Oops make that Yôngûnmun, not Yônginmun.

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 22:54:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrei Lankov <anlankov at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [KS] Independence Gate (Tongnipmun) during Japanese
	Colonial Rule?
To: Korean Studies Discussion List <Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
Message-ID: <20041111065458.96856.qmail at web61304.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

> The discussion of destroyed buildings reminded me of
> a question I have been long meaning to ask: what
> happened to the Indpenedence Gate (Tongnipmun)
> during the period of Japanese Colonial Rule? 

Nothing bad. They were even repaired twice, in 1917
and in 1928. In the latter case the necessary funds
were provided the Office of the Governor General (4000
won/yen). I would not speculate, but I assume that the
Japanese officials (and, for that matter, most
Koreans) still remembered well what was meant by
'independence' in 1896.

Regards,

Andrei Lankov

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:46:20 +0900
From: Gary Rector / Yu <gary at korealore.com>
Subject: Re: [KS] Independence Gate (Tongnipmun) during Japanese
	Colonial Rule?
To: Peter Schroepfer <schroepfer at gmail.com>,	Korean Studies Discussion
	List <Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
Message-ID: <419334EC.6010501 at korealore.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

The Independence Arch was moved in 1979. (I had been living in Seoul for
several years then and am still here!) Whoever wrote 1997 must have simply
reversed the 7 and the 9 while typing.

Gary Rector

Peter Schroepfer wrote:

>>The Independence Arch was moved from the site where the Sungsan
>>    
>>
>highway passed by in 1997.
>
>I've read this sentence several times and do believe I'm still
>misreading something or need to doubt my eyes, but if it means
>Tongnummun/Dongnimmun was moved, turned around, or in any way adjusted
>in 1997 it just can't be accurate, as anyone who has lived in Seoul's
>downtown neighborhoods in the last few decades can tell you. Obviously
>it was moved at some point in history, and surely someone on this
>listserve will be able to clarify when.
>
>...
>  
>

>Peter Schroepfer.
>
>  
>

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:25:49 -0500
From: Kirk Larsen <kwlarsen at gwu.edu>
Subject: Re: [KS] Independence Gate (Tongnipmun) during Japanese
	Colonial Rule?
To: Peter Schroepfer <schroepfer at gmail.com>, Korean Studies Discussion
	List <Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
Message-ID: <6a7eb056a7f784.6a7f7846a7eb05 at gwu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Thanks for all the replies to my query.

I went back and checked my photo of the description of Tongnipmun and it states that it was moved in 1979, not 1997. Perhaps that might account for some of the misunderstanding.

And as Peter Schroepfer accurately states, I am aware that the arch was intended as a symbolic declaration of independence from China, not Japan. Still, like Peter, I was curious if anyone could shed some light on the official Japanese policy toward the gate. Note that the tourist description of the nearby Tongnipgwan (Indepedence Hall) notes that the building "was later destroyed by the Japanese." Whether this was done for symbolic or other reasons is not clear. 

Cheers,

Kirk W. Larsen
Korea Foundation Assistant Professor of
History and International Affairs
Phillips 330
The George Washington University
Washington DC, 20052
(202) 994-8115

----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Schroepfer <schroepfer at gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 11:56 pm
Subject: Re: [KS] Independence Gate (Tongnipmun) during Japanese Colonial Rule?

> >The Independence Arch was moved from the site where the Sungsan
> highway passed by in 1997.
> 
> I've read this sentence several times and do believe I'm still
> misreading something or need to doubt my eyes, but if it means
> Tongnummun/Dongnimmun was moved, turned around, or in any way adjusted
> in 1997 it just can't be accurate, as anyone who has lived in Seoul's
> downtown neighborhoods in the last few decades can tell you. Obviously
> it was moved at some point in history, and surely someone on this
> listserve will be able to clarify when.
> 
> Also, anyone who has gotten a close look will have noticed that next
> to it stands a smaller arch which clearly says YÃ´nginmun, intended to
> welcome visiting Chinese emissaries. So even if that one was
> "destroyed in February 1895" (and I don't know that to be inaccurate)
> then obviously part of it still stands or was rebuilt, which would
> surprise me. YÃ´nginmun is tiny, so I can imagine there might have been
> more to it at one point.
> 
> Kirk Larsen, myself, and the many others who do not have the wrong
> impression that Tongnimmun was a declaration of independence from
> Japan probably still wonder what the Japanese thought of the monument.
> I can see the Japanese wanting to keep it there, frankly, given how
> the "independence" was in relation to China, but it would be
> interesting to hear about any Japanese references to it during
> colonial times.
> 
> Peter Schroepfer.
> 
> 

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:25:13 -0800 (PST)
From: K-Flexx <manyongdae at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [KS] Independence Gate (Tongnipmun) during Japanese
	Colonial Rule?
To: Korean Studies Discussion List <Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
Message-ID: <20041111142513.46852.qmail at web50208.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Dr Lankov, on the topic of gates, didn;t you tell me
something recently about Bukdaemun and Seodaemun being
destroyed? Someone here asserted recently that there
was never a Bukdaemun because the mountains were to
the north of Seoul, and they formed a natural barrier.

Was there, or was there not, a Bukdaemun?

--- Andrei Lankov <anlankov at yahoo.com> wrote:

> > The discussion of destroyed buildings reminded me
> of
> > a question I have been long meaning to ask: what
> > happened to the Indpenedence Gate (Tongnipmun)
> > during the period of Japanese Colonial Rule? 
> 
> Nothing bad. They were even repaired twice, in 1917
> and in 1928. In the latter case the necessary funds
> were provided the Office of the Governor General
> (4000
> won/yen). I would not speculate, but I assume that
> the
> Japanese officials (and, for that matter, most
> Koreans) still remembered well what was meant by
> 'independence' in 1896.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Andrei Lankov
> 
> 

__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. 
www.yahoo.com 

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:27:25 +0900 (KST)
From: "Leonid Petrov" <petrov at hanmail.net>
Subject: [KS] Independence Gate (Tongnipmun)
To: <koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
Message-ID: <20041111212725.HM.00000000000E1vp at wwl93.hanmail.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/koreanstudies_koreaweb.ws/attachments/20041111/3e677b77/attachment-0001.htm

End of Koreanstudies Digest, Vol 17, Issue 7
********************************************