[KS] The Mystery of the Breve

[Stephen Epstein]

If I may jump in here in response to Frank and 
Otfried's posts on the basis of a lot of 
practical experience with web publishing and 
communicating with multiple users in the last 
decade as a result of Korean Studies Review and 
other projects.

In principle I agree with Frank: the issue of 
breves SHOULD really not be a problem. In 
practice, however,  I concur 100% with Otfried. 
The operative word here is precisely that 
idealizing SHOULD, where all computers users are 
fully clued up on what to do in order to 
read/write breves regardless of what computer 
they are working on at any given moment and then 
implement those changes. The variety and relative 
complexity (and this need be no more than having 
to input an alt key to produce the diacritic) of 
solutions offered to deal with the issue offer 
ample indication that in the real world in which 
we actually operate, the problem will continue to 
plague us for a while to come--and that's even 
among people who take the issue seriously.

In knocking files back and forth over the years 
with reviewers for KSR, I've found that, 
unfortunately, far too frequently breves don't 
survive as intended for whatever reasons of 
platform mismatch or moving from e-mail to MS 
Word to the web or any combination thereof. I've 
seen it happen that even when breves have worked 
in communication with the reviewer while 
preparing the review that they have then become 
garbled upon publication on KSR if I have to put 
up the review or reread it, as often, while 
traveling. To give two separate examples 
involving electronic publishing from 2009: I'm 
co-editing a volume for the electronic publishing 
wing  (the electronic wing, mind you, who you 
would expect to be the most clued up) of a major 
university press, and we were informed that their 
software would not be able to handle breves, so 
we were faced with the choice of having 
contributors convert all their Mc-R breves to 
circumflexes or going with the 2000 RR system. 
Similarly, an article I published in Japan Focus 
was fine when it first went out on the web--but 
Japan Focus redid their website and, voila, in 
their conversion to new URLs and probably with 
other changes as well, all my diacritics turned 
to garbage (or to be more precise, variations on 
the usual odd characters that I've never seen 
before: e.g Mount KÇ"mgang  and saet'Å?min ). 
I've requested correction, but the editors are 
busy and understandably have other priorities, so 
the errors remain, which also highlights that we 
don't have full control over how our material 
will appear, regardless of how painstaking we 
have been.

Let's posit, as an arbitrary date, that these 
issues will indeed be fully solved by 2020 even 
for "non-informed users."  ("Next couple of 
years", I fear, is far too optimistic). Frank, to 
use your metaphor in your response to Otfried: 
it's going to be a very long hangover--all that 
Advil in the meantime may result in some serious 
gastrointestinal side effects, and it'd be nice 
to give our stomachs something a tad gentler.....

All best to everyone and with thanks for 
interesting and important discussion, Stephen







At 9:43 AM +1200 9/14/09, Michael Rank wrote:
>Not being a professional Koreanist (far from it!) I don't want to risk
>my life in the War of the Breves but may I point out that all the
>letters with breves have come out as question marks ? on my computer -
>a Mac - and I believe Frank Hoffmann uses a Mac too!
>
>Michael (keeping head well under parapet...)
>
>
>>  Message: 5
>>  Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 16:39:44 -0400
>>  From: Frank Hoffmann <hoffmann at koreaweb.ws>
>>  Subject: Re: [KS] The Mystery of the Breve
>>  To: koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws
>>  Message-ID: <20090913163944.zgyrr8x3r4c0wwos at koreaweb.ws>
>>  Content-Type: text/plain;     charset=UTF-8; 
>>DelSp="Yes";    format="flowed"
>>
>>  Dear Brother Anthony, and others:
>>
>>  Sorry to be so direct, but I feel that THIS should really not anymore
>>  be one of the points to be discussed on the
>  > transcription/transliteration issue.
>>
>>  It was done before, but here again the technical basics:
>>
>>  (a) First, the problems listed (mostly limited for non-informed users)
>>  will go away within the next couple of years, as soon as old and
>>  outdated software and older computers have been replaced by newer
>>  script/program versions (of message boards, email software, etc.) and
>>  operating systems (such as Mac OS X or Windows XP and later). Of
>>  course, when to replace or update outdated hard- and software is an
>>  individual choice.
>>
>>  (b) As was pointed out on this list before (by myself and others), the
>>  "new" (that is 1990s) Unicode fonts that are now standard for Windows
>>  (starting, I believe, with Windows 2000 or XP, and with Mac OS 9) all
>>  include br?ves as well as Hanja, Han'g?l, Hiragana, Arabic, Hebrew,
>>  Tibetan, Bengali, and the alphabets and scripts of many other world
>>  languages. Just look it up in the Wikipedia:
>>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode or visit the Unicode home page:
>>  http://unicode.org
>>  ... QUOTE: "Unicode consists of a repertoire of more than 100,000
>>  characters"
>>  All these characters are in each of the standard new fonts you use --
>>  say Arial, Times, Palatino, or Courier. However, all of us have most
>>  likely still other older pre-Unicode fonts installed on our computers,
>>  and only if you now reformat some text you got from someone else using
>>  an Unicode font (or reverse), only then will you run into trouble.
>>
>>  (c) You stated that in a Mac environment it is especially difficult to
>>  type the br?ves. Well, it is not. With an US-English keyboard layout
>>  (you can freely choose the keyboard layout in the Mac preferences)
>>  this is what you type (might vary according to chosen keyboard layout):
>>
>>  McCune-R :
>>     ? --> ALT + b, then o
>>     ? --> ALT + b, then SHIFT + o
>>     ? --> ALT + b, then u
>>     ? --> ALT + b, then SHIFT + u
>>
>>  Hepburn:
>>     ? --> ALT + a, then o
>>     ? --> ALT + a, then SHIFT + o
>>     ? --> ALT + a, then u
>>     ? --> ALT + a, then SHIFT +
>>
>>
>>  (d) Web pages using br?ves (or any other characters present in Unicode
>>  fonts, such as Han'g?l or Chinese Characters): all that the web
>>  designer needs to do to make this work for ALL newer web browsers
>  > under any OS is to use UTF-8 encoding -- this is done by inserting
>>  this line in the header:
>>  "charset=UTF-8" (instead of, for example, "charset=iso-8859-1" for
>>  standard older Latin encoding). The problem that Mac users sometimes
>>  have is that websites in Korean language are often encoded in national
>>  Korean codes (a problem you see with many Han'g?l sites), not using
>>  Unicode character sets either but Windows-only fonts -- and THIS is
>>  rather a problem created by the 'ignorance' of the makers of these
>>  websites, one that will for sure also disappear rather sooner than
>>  later. The latest version of the Mac Safari browser, by the way, deals
>>  quite well with most of these strange setups (not so Firefox).
>>
>>
>>  Best wishes,
>>  Frank
>>
>>
>>  ========= q u o t e =========
>>  (...)
>>  In addition, we know that any email, blog, or web page into which we
>>  have inserted such a special character will more often than not (more
>>  than 50% of the time,  I am told) fail to work when viewed on another
>>  computer, even using the same browser; the special characters will
>>  usually be seen as ? or as some kind of blob. Moreover, the text of a
>>  500-page book composed on a PC using (say) MSWord, into which we have
>>  carefully inserted breved characters as above, once it has been sent
>>  to the editor or printer (not only in the US) will usually be
>>  transported into a Mac environment. Each breved character, to say
>>  nothing of apostrophes and the dashes if not hyphens, disappears and
>>  someone has to go through the entire text, looking at a printout of
>>  the original,  re-inserting the breved characters etc (which is said
>>  to be especially tricky on a Mac, I don't know). It is also not
>>  possible to use the MSWord 'search and replace' function to introduce
>>  as 'replace' a word with a breved letter.
>>
>>  So my question is: in the light of this set of problems with breved
>  > letters, which are with us every day and will not be going away any
>>  time soon, (...)
>>
>>  =============================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>>  Message: 6
>>  Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 16:59:16 -0400
>>  From: Javier Cha <javiercha at gmail.com>
>>  Subject: Re: [KS] The Mystery of the Breve
>>  To: Korean Studies Discussion List <koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
>>  Message-ID:
>>        <dffd4c960909131359t7ee5a4c0x4071d99501d9d72f at mail.gmail.com>
>>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>>  Just to add to the discussion of typing breved (is that a word?)
>>  vowels in Windows:
>>
>>  Microsoft Word (the Windows editions) allows direct input of unicode
>>  characters through conversion from the hexadecimal number to which the
>>  character is mapped. It is a trick that has served me well for many
>>  years now.
>>
>>  The hex numbers for the vowels with breve in the MR system are:
>>
>>  ? --> 014f
>>  ? --> 014e
>>  ? --> 016d
>>  ? --> 016c
>>
>>  To try this, open Microsoft Word; type 014f and press Alt+X. Word will
>>  convert the hex code into the corresponding unicode character, ?.
>>
>>  Unfortunately this function is not implemented in other Windows
>>  applications. Maybe there are third party tools that allow this kind
>>  of input but I haven't researched yet. If you use the full version of
>>  Outlook (not Outlook Express or Windows Mail) you can enable Word as
>>  the email editor and use this feature.
>>
>>  Javier
>>
>>
>>
>>  On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Frank Hoffmann <hoffmann at koreaweb.ws>
>>  wrote:
>>>  Dear Brother Anthony, and others:
>>>
>>>  Sorry to be so direct, but I feel that THIS should really not anymore
>>>  be one
>>>  of the points to be discussed on the transcription/transliteration
>>>  issue.
>>>
>>>  It was done before, but here again the technical basics:
>>>
>>>  (a) First, the problems listed (mostly limited for non-informed
>>>  users) will
>>>  go away within the next couple of years, as soon as old and outdated
>>>  software and older computers have been replaced by newer
>>>  script/program
>>>  versions (of message boards, email software, etc.) and operating
>>>  systems
>>>  (such as Mac OS X or Windows XP and later). Of course, when to
>>>  replace or
>>>  update outdated hard- and software is an individual choice.
>  >>
>>>  (b) As was pointed out on this list before (by myself and others),
>>>  the "new"
>>>  (that is 1990s) Unicode fonts that are now standard for Windows
>>>  (starting, I
>>>  believe, with Windows 2000 or XP, and with Mac OS 9) all include
>>>  br?ves as
>>>  well as Hanja, Han'g?l, Hiragana, Arabic, Hebrew, Tibetan, Bengali,
>>>  and the
>>>  alphabets and scripts of many other world languages. Just look it up
>>>  in the
>>>  Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode or visit the Unicode
>>>  home
>>>  page: http://unicode.org
>>>  ... QUOTE: "Unicode consists of a repertoire of more than 100,000
>>>  characters"
>>>  All these characters are in each of the standard new fonts you use --
>>>  say
>>>  Arial, Times, Palatino, or Courier. However, all of us have most
>>>  likely
>>>  still other older pre-Unicode fonts installed on our computers, and
>>>  only if
>>>  you now reformat some text you got from someone else using an Unicode
>>>  font
>>>  (or reverse), only then will you run into trouble.
>>>
>>>  (c) You stated that in a Mac environment it is especially difficult
>>>  to type
>>>  the br?ves. Well, it is not. With an US-English keyboard layout (you
>>>  can
>>>  freely choose the keyboard layout in the Mac preferences) this is
>>>  what you
>>>  type (might vary according to chosen keyboard layout):
>>>
>>>  McCune-R :
>>>  ?? --> ALT + b, then o
>>>  ?? --> ALT + b, then SHIFT + o
>>>  ?? --> ALT + b, then u
>>>  ?? --> ALT + b, then SHIFT + u
>>>
>>>  Hepburn:
>>>  ?? --> ALT + a, then o
>>>  ?? --> ALT + a, then SHIFT + o
>>>  ?? --> ALT + a, then u
>>>  ?? --> ALT + a, then SHIFT +
>>>
>>>
>>>  (d) Web pages using br?ves (or any other characters present in Unicode
>>>  fonts, such as Han'g?l or Chinese Characters): all that the web
>>>  designer
>>>  needs to do to make this work for ALL newer web browsers under any OS
>>>  is to
>>>  use UTF-8 encoding -- this is done by inserting this line in the
>>>  header:
>  >> "charset=UTF-8" (instead of, for example, "charset=iso-8859-1" for
>>>  standard
>>>  older Latin encoding). The problem that Mac users sometimes have is
>>>  that
>>>  websites in Korean language are often encoded in national Korean
>>>  codes (a
>>>  problem you see with many Han'g?l sites), not using Unicode character
>>>  sets
>>>  either but Windows-only fonts -- and THIS is rather a problem created
>>>  by the
>>>  'ignorance' of the makers of these websites, one that will for sure
>>>  also
>>>  disappear rather sooner than later. The latest version of the Mac
>>>  Safari
>>>  browser, by the way, deals quite well with most of these strange
>>>  setups (not
>>>  so Firefox).
>>>
>>>
>>>  Best wishes,
>>>  Frank
>>>
>>>
>>>  ========= q u o t e =========
>>>  (...)
>>>  In addition, we know that any email, blog, or web page into which we
>>>  have
>>>  inserted such a special character will more often than not (more than
>>>  50% of
>>>  the time, ?I am told) fail to work when viewed on another computer,
>>>  even
>>>  using the same browser; the special characters will usually be seen
>>>  as ? or
>>>  as some kind of blob. Moreover, the text of a 500-page book composed
>>>  on a PC
>>>  using (say) MSWord, into which we have carefully inserted breved
>>>  characters
>>>  as above, once it has been sent to the editor or printer (not only in
>>>  the
>>>  US) will usually be transported into a Mac environment. Each breved
>>>  character, to say nothing of apostrophes and the dashes if not
>>>  hyphens,
>>>  disappears and someone has to go through the entire text, looking at a
>>>  printout of the original, ?re-inserting the breved characters etc
>>>  (which is
>>>  said to be especially tricky on a Mac, I don't know). It is also not
>>>  possible to use the MSWord 'search and replace' function to introduce
>>>  as
>>>  'replace' a word with a breved letter.
>>>
>>>  So my question is: in the light of this set of problems with breved
>>>  letters,
>>>  which are with us every day and will not be going away any time soon,
>>>  (...)
>>>
>>>  =============================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  End of Koreanstudies Digest, Vol 75, Issue 14
>>  *********************************************
>>
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