[KS] Variable Romanization of 년(年) in McCune-Reischauer

[Clark W Sorensen]

On Fri, 28 Feb 2014, Clark W Sorensen wrote:

> Werner,
>
> As for "kyohoe" it went by so fast I wouldn't vouch for the phonetic accuracy 
> of my transcription. (Unlike "oeguk saram", which was pronounced slowly and 
> distinctly several times in the course of an overheard conversation). In fact 
> it took me a minute to even recognize the word. As for your other questions, 
> I can't answer them because of "contamination" by many years of speaking 
> Korean with Koreans all over Korea. I could give the two examples above only 
> because I wrote them in my field notes when I was fresh in the field and 
> hearing everything for the first time.
>
> Clark
>
> On Fri, 28 Feb 2014, Werner Sasse wrote:
>
>> Dear Clark,
>> thank you for the interesting observations, I will try to talk all this 
>> over with colleagues once I am back in Korea.
>> 
>> One hesitation: your example of "교회 might more accurately be transcribed 
>> kyöhö," actually makes me suspicious again. Maybe my "German /ö/" may be 
>> after all much more front
>> and much more open than the /ö/ you heard in "kyöhö". I have heard this 
>> also, probably a kind of regressive assimilation of the in normal speech 
>> pretty open and less rounded
>> last syllable /외/, which is quite different from the "German /ö/".
>> 
>> Another question: While you " never heard a clear example of 위 pronounced 
>> as ü", did you hear an /i/ {ee}? And if you did, in which surrounding?.
>> 
>> Anyway, Thanks again
>> Werner
>>  
>> 
>> > Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 09:27:19 -0800
>> > From: sangok at u.washington.edu
>> > To: koreanstudies at koreanstudies.com
>> > Subject: Re: [KS] Variable Romanization of 년(年) in McCune-Reischauer
>> >
>> > Werner,
>> >
>> > The pronunciation of 외국 사람 as ö:guk saram was not accompanied by a 
>> glide, and, as I have indicated in the transcription was clearly pronounced 
>> as a long vowel. This was
>> the village head calling in my residential registration to the township 
>> police. His speech was slow and clear, and I have the impression that the 
>> village head perceived this to
>> be a prestige pronunciation. The example of 교회 might more accurately be 
>> transcribed kyöhö, and I heard it in rapid very dialectical speech (that I 
>> barely understood) from a
>> women whom I conversed with on a rural road. I have never heard a clear 
>> example of 위 pronounced as ü, however.
>> >
>> > As long as we're talking dialect, the part of Kangwon Province that I was 
>> in was about 25 km southwest of Ch'unch'ŏn, and thus within the central 
>> dialect region that includes
>> Seoul (though there was enough distance from Seoul speech that it took me 
>> several months to catch on to the dialect). The east coast of Kangwŏn 
>> Province, of course, is in an
>> entirely different dialect region (more like Kyŏngsang dialect). Villagers 
>> in the area around Ch'unch'ŏn would tell me that they could not understand 
>> that dialect.
>> >
>> > Clark Sorensen
>> >
>> > On Wed, 26 Feb 2014, Werner Sasse wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hi Bob,
>> > > thanks, yours is the second posting with Kangwon-do coming in, so there 
>> must be something here.
>> > > But again, I wished somebody tested whether the Kangwon-do [ö] is 
>> really close to the German  [ö]. There are a lot of
>> > > possible variations in the Umlaut, and when I say In do not hear it, I 
>> am not referring to "similar" but to "same"...
>> > > Thank you for pointing out Young-Key Kim-Renaud, I will look into that 
>> when I am back in Korea
>> > > Best wishes
>> > > Your Werner
>> > >
>> > > 
>> ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>> > > From: ramsey at umd.edu
>> > > To: koreanstudies at koreanstudies.com
>> > > Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 03:04:15 +0000
>> > > Subject: Re: [KS] Variable Romanization of 년(年) in McCune-Reischauer
>> > >
>> > > Hey Werner!
>> > > Great to hear you chime in.  Yes, I did do a lot of listening to Lee 
>> Sung Nyong back in the day.  But that was
>> > > admittedly a long time ago.  The person I know who most 
>> clearly uses [ö] in his speech is Lee Iksop.  (He and I talk
>> > > to each other pretty frequently.)  Now, it's true (as you probably 
>> know) that though he's lived much of life in Seoul,
>> > > he's originally from 강원, which means he's not completely 
>> representative of the Seoul standard. But he's also a
>> > > phonologist, and he assures me that the umlaut pronunciations do 
>> represent actual pronunciations in the old Seoul
>> > > standard, at least in certain phonological environments.  (Young-Key 
>> Kim-Renaud, who is a native of Seoul and a
>> > > phonologist, has described the realizations of those vowels in more 
>> detail in her recent book, but I don't have that
>> > > handy right now.) 
>> > >
>> > > I hope you're having fun in India!
>> > > Bob
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > From: Werner Sasse <werner_sasse at hotmail.com>
>> > > Reply-To: Korean List <koreanstudies at koreanstudies.com>
>> > > Date: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 1:32 PM
>> > > To: Korean List <koreanstudies at koreanstudies.com>
>> > > Subject: Re: [KS] Variable Romanization of 년(年) in McCune-Reischauer
>> > >
>> > > Hi, Bob,
>> > > this starts to be really interesting. 
>> > >
>> > > > You're certainly right that we don't hear 외 pronounced as [ö], or 위 
>> as [ü], very often today, at least not in
>> > > Seoul.
>> > > Well really, I never hear the German [ö], or  [ü], only in discussions 
>> with linguists who also speak German well.
>> > > There is always a slight glide in what I hear. I wished, someone would 
>> make decent research based on electronic
>> > > recordings.
>> > > However, when I was teaching German in the late 60ies, one of the 
>> biggest problems was that the students (coming from
>> > > all over Korea) had a hard time trying to get even near the 
>> pronunciation and were simply unable to make it a habit.
>> > >
>> > > > But in the past the vowels were certainly described as having those 
>> phonetic values, just as Martin says.
>> > > Yes: "described", and by linguists, who were looking for standards... I 
>> am sorry, but here is really my suspicion: I
>> > > do not trust the books as long as I cannot hear it in the street. 
>> (Please, I know this is dangerous, as I am not
>> > > basing my suspicion on research, but my exposure to Korean spans almost 
>> 50 years now, and even if I know that
>> > > prejudices can last long...)
>> > >
>> > > > The ROK government document 표준바름범 'Standard Pronunciation' 
>> published in 1989 informs us that the umlaut
>> > > > pronunciations are standard, which means that the authors of the 
>> document must have been taking the speech of older
>> > > Seoul
>> > > > natives (think of Lee Sung Nyong) as the model
>> > > Here we go again: "government document 표준바름범 'Standard 
>> Pronunciation' "... Linguists, of course...
>> > > And now: " which means that the authors of the document must have been 
>> taking the speech of older Seoul
>> > > natives (think of Lee Sung Nyong) as the model." Well, you talked with 
>> him much more often than I ever did, but did he
>> > > really use  the German [ö], or  [ü]? It did not strike me (but then, 
>> that was not really the question on my mind when
>> > > I talked to him)
>> > >
>> > > o.k. I may all be wrong. But I am glad that my somewhat flippant remark 
>> starts such an interesting discussion on the
>> > > question of  how much in our descriptions is biased because of our 
>> training which makes us see and hear things
>> > > pre-patterned .
>> > >
>> > > Another question in this respect is: How much is the regular 이/가 
>> opposition of today the result of school grammar
>> > > (again: the linguists). The few prose texts from the 19th century I saw 
>> do present chaos (is 가 possibly emphatic?)
>> > > Ooooch...
>> > >
>> > > I am in India at the moment: I hope it is not that the sun is too 
>> hot...,
>> > > best wishes, and I hope we have a chance to meet again soon
>> > > Your Werner
>> > >
>> > > > From: ramsey at umd.edu
>> > > > To: koreanstudies at koreanstudies.com
>> > > > Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 15:00:38 +0000
>> > > > Subject: Re: [KS] Variable Romanization of 년(年) in 
>> McCune-Reischauer
>> > > >
>> > > > You're certainly right that we don't hear 외 pronounced as [ö], or 위 
>> as [ü], very often today, at least not in
>> > > Seoul. But in the past the vowels were certainly described as having 
>> those phonetic values, just as Martin says. The
>> > > ROK government document 표준바름범 'Standard Pronunciation' published 
>> in 1989 informs us that the umlaut
>> > > pronunciations are standard, which means that the authors of the 
>> document must have been taking the speech of older
>> > > Seoul natives (think of Lee Sung Nyong) as the model. Cf. Lee and 
>> Ramsey, "The Korean Language" (2000), page 64.
>> > > >
>> > > > Best,
>> > > > Bob Ramsey
>> > > >
>> > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > From: Koreanstudies [mailto:koreanstudies-bounces at koreanstudies.com] 
>> On Behalf Of Otfried Cheong
>> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 1:57 AM
>> > > > To: Korean Studies Discussion List
>> > > > Subject: Re: [KS] Variable Romanization of 년(年) in 
>> McCune-Reischauer
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On 24/02/14 13:38, Werner Sasse wrote:
>> > > > > Right you are. Reminds me of Korean scholars in "Germanistik", who 
>> try
>> > > > > to convince me that Korean 외 is identical with German /ö/ : The
>> > > > > linguist's need or wish to make a rule, which sometimes is 
>> overriding
>> > > > > simple observation, a not uncommon occupational disease amongst us
>> > > > > scholars (and not only linguists)
>> > > >
>> > > > I have been wondering about this for a long time. When I first learnt 
>> Korean, I had some tapes that turned out to
>> > > have been recorded a long time ago, possibly in the 1950's (with 
>> example sentences like "This towel costs 23 Won").
>> > > >
>> > > > One of the speakers on those tapes systematically pronounced 외 as 
>> /ö/
>> > > > and 위 as /ü/. If I remember right, the textbook explained that this
>> > > > pronunciation was a valid variant used by some speakers.
>> > > >
>> > > > I have met two (unrelated) senior Professor Choi's, who both told me 
>> that their name is properly pronounced /chö/,
>> > > even though they did not seem to use the /ö/ variant in their own 
>> speech.
>> > > >
>> > > > Samuel Martin's "A reference grammar of Korean" (my copy was 
>> published in 1992) describes /외/ on page 24 as the
>> > > front rounded mid vowel, that is /ö/. However, he says that "in 
>> standard Seoul speech 외 is not distinguished from
>> > > 웨", and "many speakers tend to pronounce 위 as a long monophthong /ü/ 
>> rather than the more common diphthong".
>> > > >
>> > > > I personally do not remember meeting a Korean who used the 
>> monophthong variants, and when I ask younger Koreans
>> > > about this, they are completely baffled. They never heard about this 
>> variant, and have no idea why Goethe is spelled
>> > > 괴테.
>> > > >
>> > > > When I point out to them that adding 이 to 아 and 어 moves the vowel 
>> from the back to the front of the mouth, and
>> > > that the logical generalization would be for 외 and 위 to be fronted 오 
>> and 우's, they agree (with surprise) that
>> > > Hangul is inconsistent - but they still can't accept the variant as 
>> correct Korean, or think of anyone who speaks like
>> > > that.
>> > > >
>> > > > When did this variant fall out of usage? Or has it always been a 
>> regional variant? Is it still alive somewhere?
>> > > >
>> > > > Best wishes,
>> > > > Otfried Cheong
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> 
>> 
>