[KS] Qing–Chosŏn royal exchanges or marriages?

Thu Sep 21 01:48:22 EDT 2023

Re: Aisin Gioro/Aesin Kangna 愛新覺羅

It must've been nearly twenty years ago when I ran this by a respected historical linguist, who, at least at the time, viewed Korean as an Altaic language for all the warts and wrinkles of the Altaic hypothesis—simply because he believed it was the best plausible explanation of the origins of Korean language. Considering this, I was somewhat struck by how he readily dismissed the notion that Aisin Gioro/Aesin Kangna derived from Alji kyŏre 閼智겨레 (i.e., scion of [Kim] Alji, the mythical ancestor of the Silla Kim). His take: coincidences abound, and a coincidence is no more than just that, without any adequate evidence to suggest anything more.

Gene

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From: Koreanstudies <koreanstudies-bounces at koreanstudies.com> on behalf of Adam Bohnet <abohnet at uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2023 4:00 PM
To: kwlarsen67 at gmail.com <kwlarsen67 at gmail.com>; Korean Studies Discussion List <koreanstudies at koreanstudies.com>
Subject: Re: [KS] Qing–Chosŏn royal exchanges or marriages?

[EXTERNAL EMAIL]

And one more subject that comes to mind – I am trying to sort it out, as I have forgotten the precise details. There were stories connecting Nurhaci to North Hamgyŏng (which is to say, tracing his ancestry to Chosŏn’s pŏnho) – which would mean that he had relatives south of the border. It isn’t a solid history, but just a story – the sort of thing that gets references in yadam and some gazetteers. Second, there is a story of a member of the Aisin Gioro family who fled to Choson (where I think he was killed) that appears in some informal writings. I read it, I thought about putting it in my book, and then I didn’t! And now I no longer remember any details.

None of this is in the sphere of hard facts, but to me are very interesting.

Of course in the sphere of pseudo-history, there is the absurd claim that the Chinese characters for Aisin Gioro 愛新覺羅 mean “We love 愛 and Remember 覺Silla 新羅,” and so Nurhaci and Hong Taiji were secretly Korean. Why would they keep it a secret and preserve it only in code? I don’t think I have found anybody who explains that.

Yours,

Adam

From: Koreanstudies <koreanstudies-bounces at koreanstudies.com> On Behalf Of Kirk Larsen
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2023 6:07 PM
To: Korean Studies Discussion List <koreanstudies at koreanstudies.com>
Subject: Re: [KS] Qing–Chosŏn royal exchanges or marriages?

I agree with Adam's answers to Frank's queries here!

I will note, however, the interesting cases of Princess Ŭisun, who was adopted by Hyojong so she could be married to Dorgon (who ruled more or less as regent for the Shunzhi Emperor) and "Imperial Noble Consort Shujia" who was from a Korean clan that joined the Manchus probably around the 1636 invasion of Chosŏn and was married to the then prince but future Qianlong Emperor. Not exactly royal intermarriages but probably worth noting nonetheless.

Cheers,

Kirk Larsen

On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 8:30 PM Adam Bohnet <abohnet at uwo.ca<mailto:abohnet at uwo.ca>> wrote:

First answer, as for Korea: No. There were no members of the Qing royal family who staid in Choson. There were also no royal intermarriages. Also none under the Ming. The Koreans who became part of the palace complex were not royal. The closest to Ming imperial women in Choson were some refugees that the Qing allowed to live in Choson after 1645. They were not, however, intermarried with the Ming court.

Check out Rawski - there were royal intermarriages between the Aisin Gioro family and Mongol princes. I guess it depends on what you mean by outside the country. But yes, the Aisin Gioro royal house did intermarry with Mongols, quite deliberately.  Mongol princes spoke in Manchu to avoid being overheard by their inferiors, according I think to Evelyn Rawski's book on Qing emperors. I would check out that book, by the way, for such answers.

As for three - I don't think so. I have never heard of such a case (again, unless you are including Mongolia, and Xinjiang and Tibet, in which case, possibly? I think you will need to consult with Qing historians for that, to be certain.

Yours,

Adam
-----Original Message-----
From: Koreanstudies <koreanstudies-bounces at koreanstudies.com<mailto:koreanstudies-bounces at koreanstudies.com>> On Behalf Of Frank Hoffmann
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2023 8:02 PM
To: Korean Studies Discussion List <koreanstudies at koreanstudies.com<mailto:koreanstudies at koreanstudies.com>>
Subject: [KS] Qing–Chosŏn royal exchanges or marriages?

Dear All:

Apologies, but I seem to have forgotten if I never even came across any information about the following issue. Maybe someone has a definitive answer?

I am aware that Crown Prince Sohyŏn spent many years in what is now Shenyang—albeit under forced circumstances. However, what I'm actually curious about is whether, during Qing times, there were any instances of royal intermarriages occurring "in the other direction," whereby members of the Manchu Chinese royal family found themselves residing in Korea. Alternatively, were there any cases, aside from the usual diplomatic delegations and travel, of members of the Qing royal family living in Korea or other Asian countries for reasons beyond these traditional activities?

Thanks!
Frank

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Kirk W. Larsen
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Brigham Young University
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