[KS] Brian Hwang's Discussion Question
Jiyul Kim
jiyulkim at gmail.com
Mon Apr 16 20:46:47 EDT 2012
Prof. Pettid, your optimism and idealism are admirable and I hope they
are achievable and will come to being. JK
On 4/16/2012 7:57 PM, Michael Pettid wrote:
>> Mr. Kim,
>>
>> It is too easy to blame war and violence on some predisposed human
>> condition (and that is very convenient for militaristic governments
>> and individuals who hope to profit from such violence). And
>> preparing for war is surely the best way to prevent it and make the
>> world safe. We are certainly doing a fine job of that as I write.
>>
>> I am a premodernist and I teach my students about the futility and
>> uselessness of war and how that damaged the lives of individuals and
>> society. It is not a human condition as you state, but rather
>> resultant from greed and the desire to take from others what one
>> might not have. I find it rather amazing that this is something I
>> need to state in academia, but clearly we have a ways to go.
>> Michael J. Pettid
>> Professor of Premodern Korean Studies
>> Department of Asian and Asian American Studies
>> Director, Translation, Research and Instruction Program
>> Binghamton University
>> 607.777.3862
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Sheila Miyoshi Jager <sheila.jager at oberlin.edu>
> *To:* koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws
> *Sent:* Monday, April 16, 2012 8:22 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [KS] Brian Hwang's Discussion Question
>
> Unfortunately war is a necessary evil in the human condition. The
> better you are prepared for it the better the chance of preventing it.
> No one is more anti-war then the people who have to fight it if it
> occurs. You can condemn war, and rightfully so, but you can't
> eliminate it.
>
> Jiyul Kim.
>
> On 4/15/2012 7:50 PM, Michael Pettid wrote:
>> Mr. Kim
>>
>> I am happy that you were able to find a silver lining in a war that
>> killed tens of thousands of combatants and many, many more
>> non-combatants. The war experience that was able to "bolster the
>> competence and confidence" of the SK troops was surely worth such a
>> cost, right? Wars are the plague of humankind and nothing more than
>> the actions of various governments to achieve their goals. War must
>> be condemned in whatever fashion necessary.
>>
>> Michael J. Pettid
>> Professor of Premodern Korean Studies
>> Department of Asian and Asian American Studies
>> Director, Translation, Research and Instruction Program
>> Binghamton University
>> 607.777.3862
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Jiyul Kim <jiyulkim at gmail.com> <mailto:jiyulkim at gmail.com>
>> *To:*koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws <mailto:koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, April 15, 2012 12:58 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [KS] Brian Hwang's Discussion Question
>>
>> This is all good and fine from a macro view and I see nothing to
>> disagree with, but numbers and quantification and metrics do not make
>> history. What is left out is the psychology and emotions that Vietnam
>> generated in Park, the military, and the populace. No doubt there
>> were tremendous materiel benefits for SK and other Asian countries
>> from the war, but the war also had unmeasurable "benefits" that were
>> recognized then as well for example consolidating national pride and
>> confidence and providing the military with combat experience. Since
>> 1953 the only Korean forces, North and South, who have experienced
>> real combat were the Koreans in Vietnam including a handful of North
>> Korean fighter pilots. That experience did much to bolster the
>> competence and confidence of the South Korean Army. This is not to
>> justify their deployment or to somehow legitimate the Vietnam War. I
>> for one believe it was a tragic unjust war for the U.S. and its
>> allies to have gotten involved in, but we should not always paint
>> everything about the war in broad and condemning strokes.
>>
>> Jiyul Kim
>>
>>
>> On 4/15/2012 10:15 AM, Katsiaficas, George wrote:
>>> The larger context has bearing on your question. The government of
>>> South Korea received tremendous economic benefits from the Vietnam
>>> War. Park Chung-hee's grandiose scheme to build heavy industry
>>> required enormous amounts of money, but he had only limited domestic
>>> sources. As much as hesqueezed workers and devalued the currency to
>>> stimulate exports, he still needed farmore capital.Between 1953 and
>>> 1962, US aid funded 70% of Korea’s imports and 80% of its fixed
>>> capital investments—about 8% of its GNP.Once the US needed its
>>> monies to fight the war in Vietnam, however, it began to cut back.
>>> In order to find new international sources of money, Park endorsed a
>>> key US proposal: closer ROK ties with Japan. Staunch domestic
>>> opposition to normalization prevented a treaty from simply being
>>> finalized. On June 3, 1964, Park declared martial law in Seoul and
>>> dismissed dozens of professors and students. The US Combined Forces
>>> Commander approved the release of two combat divisions to suppress
>>> the protests. Despite thousands of students threatening to storm the
>>> Blue House (the presidentialresidence), Park rammed the treaty
>>> through the rubber stamp legislature of the Third Republic. When the
>>> opposition went on a hunger strike to protest the treaty, the ruling
>>> party took one minute to ratify it, and at the same time, it also
>>> approved sending 20,000 troops to Vietnam to fight on the side of
>>> the US. In exchange for normalization of relations, Japan paid $300
>>> million in grants (for which Park indemnified Japan for all its
>>> previous actions) and made available another half-a-billion dollars
>>> in loans.
>>> Sensing an opportunity to channel public sentiment against the
>>> communist enemy as well as a second avenue to raise capital,
>>> Park immediately offered thousands more troops for deployment to
>>> Vietnam. Despite scattered student protests, war with Vietnam proved
>>> less controversial than his settling of accounts with Japan. Park’s
>>> movement of troops was so fast, that according to figures released
>>> by the US State Department, there were more South Korean soldiers
>>> fighting in southern Vietnam in 1965 than North Vietnamese.[1]
>>> <http://us.mg6.mail.yahoo.com/neo/#_ftn1> South Koreans soldiers
>>> were widely reported to be even more brutal than their US
>>> counterparts. At the end of 1969, some 48,000 ROK military personnel
>>> were stationed in Vietnam, and by the time they completed their
>>> withdrawal in 1973, some 300,000 veterans had fought there. ROK
>>> casualties included 4,960 dead and 10,962 wounded. Wars provide
>>> experiences for military officers who go on to inflict future
>>> casualties. Lieutenant No Ri-Bang served in Jeju in 1948 and went to
>>> Vietnam. Future dictators Chun Doo Hwan and Roh Tae-woo served
>>> together in Vietnam, before brutally ruling South Korea after Park’s
>>> assassination in 1979.
>>> The economic benefits of military intervention in Vietnam were
>>> extraordinary. From 1965-1970, the South Korean government received
>>> $1.1 billion in payments—about 7% of GDP and 19% of foreign
>>> earnings.[3] <http://us.mg6.mail.yahoo.com/neo/#_ftn3> More than 80
>>> Korean companies did lucrative business in Vietnam—from
>>> transportation to supply, construction to entertainment—from which
>>> the country accrued another $1 billion for exports to and services
>>> in Vietnam. Secret US bonuses paid to Park’s government for Korean
>>> soldiers who fought in Vietnam totaled $185 million from 1965-1973.
>>> When we add all these funds to the $1.1 billion in direct payments,
>>> the total US allocations to Park’s regime amounted to about 30% of
>>> the ROK’s foreign exchange earnings from 1966-1969.[4]
>>> <http://us.mg6.mail.yahoo.com/neo/#_ftn4> Altogether US aid to South
>>> Korea totaled $11 billion by 1973—more than to any other country
>>> except South Vietnam—some 8% of worldwide US military and foreign
>>> monies.[5] <http://us.mg6.mail.yahoo.com/neo/#_ftn5> Regimes
>>> friendly to the US in Japan, Taiwan, the Philippines, and Thailand
>>> also benefited greatly from the tidal wave of dollars that flooded
>>> the region during the Vietnam War.
>>>
>>> Excerpted from my book, Asia's Unknown Uprisings: Vol. 1 South
>>> Korean Social Movements in the 20th Century
>>>
>>> George Katsiaficas
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> [1] <http://us.mg6.mail.yahoo.com/neo/#_ftnref1> See the discussion
>>> in the volume I edited, /Vietnam Documents: American and Vietnamese
>>> Views of the War/ (Armonk, NY: M.E. Sharpe, 1992) p. 63.
>>> [2] <http://us.mg6.mail.yahoo.com/neo/#_ftnref2> Chae-Jin Lee, pp.
>>> 55, 70.
>>> [3] <http://us.mg6.mail.yahoo.com/neo/#_ftnref3> Cumings, /Korea’s
>>> Place in the Sun/, p. 321.
>>> [4] <http://us.mg6.mail.yahoo.com/neo/#_ftnref4> Martin
>>> Hart-Landsberg 1993, 147-8.
>>> [5] <http://us.mg6.mail.yahoo.com/neo/#_ftnref5> Han Sung-joo,
>>> “Korean Politics in an International Context,” in Korean National
>>> Commission for UNESCO (editor) /Korean Politics: Striving for
>>> Democracy and Unification/ (Elizabeth, NJ: Hollym, 2002) p. 620.
>>>
>>> From: don kirk <kirkdon at yahoo.com <mailto:kirkdon at yahoo.com>>
>>> Reply-To: Korean Studies Discussion List <koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws
>>> <mailto:koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>>
>>> Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 15:04:41 -0700
>>> To: Kevin Shepard <kevin_shepard at yahoo.com
>>> <mailto:kevin_shepard at yahoo.com>>, Korean Studies Discussion List
>>> <koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws <mailto:koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>>
>>> Subject: Re: [KS] Brian Hwang's Discussion Question
>>>
>>> The question is whether or not they got bonuses in order to
>>> "volunteer" for Vietnam. If they got no bonuses, then obviously they
>>> wouldn't be "mercenaries." Even if they got bonuses, it would be
>>> difficult to pin the mercenary label since soldiers in any army
>>> generally get combat pay when fighting overseas. Also, I'm not sure
>>> ordinary draftees had any say in where they were sent.
>>> All told, 300,000 Koreans served in Vietnam over nearly a ten-year
>>> period. Five thousand of them were KIA, many more WIA. The White
>>> Horse and Tiger divisions were the principal units. Korean special
>>> forces were also in Vietnam. Those whom I have met are proud to have
>>> served there. Many of them, grizzled old veterans, turn up at
>>> demonstrations in Seoul protesting leftist demos, NKorean human
>>> rights violations, North Korean dynastic rule etc. They love to wear
>>> their old uniforms with ribbons awarded for Vietnam service,
>>> including acts of individual heroism.
>>> Some of them also talk quite openly about what they did in Vietnam
>>> -- and could provide material supporting your thesis re "the type of
>>> warfare that they had to fight in Vietnam,
>>> including guerrilla warfare and civilian warfare." Strongly suggest
>>> you come here and interview some while they're still around. They'd
>>> tell you a lot, good and bad. Sorry to say, one of them once boasted
>>> to me of a personal "body count" of 300 victims -- would doubt if
>>> all of them were "enemy." On the other hand, they were also known
>>> for high levels of efficiency and success in their AO's.
>>> Good luck on the project.
>>> Don Kirk
>>>
>>> --- On *Sat, 4/14/12, Kevin Shepard /<kevin_shepard at yahoo.com
>>> <mailto:kevin_shepard at yahoo.com>>/* wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Kevin Shepard <kevin_shepard at yahoo.com
>>> <mailto:kevin_shepard at yahoo.com>>
>>> Subject: Re: [KS] Brian Hwang's Discussion Question
>>> To: "koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws
>>> <mailto:koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>" <koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws
>>> <mailto:koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>>
>>> Date: Saturday, April 14, 2012, 1:40 PM
>>>
>>> I think you will be hard-pressed to justify calling individual
>>> soldiers mercenaries - the Korean government may have received
>>> funds from the US, but ROK soldiers were drafted into mandatory
>>> service. If you come across documentation that individuals
>>> volunteered for Vietnam in order to receive funds from the US,
>>> please send such documents to me.
>>>
>>> Kevin Shepard, Ph.D.
>>> Strategist
>>> UNC/CFC/USFK
>>> UCJ 5 Strategy Div.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* "koreanstudies-request at koreaweb.ws
>>> <mailto:koreanstudies-request at koreaweb.ws>"
>>> <koreanstudies-request at koreaweb.ws
>>> <mailto:koreanstudies-request at koreaweb.ws>>
>>> *To:* koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws <mailto:koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, April 15, 2012 1:00 AM
>>> *Subject:* Koreanstudies Digest, Vol 106, Issue 9
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Discussion Question (brianhwang at berkeley.edu)
>>> 2. March 2012 Issue of "Cross-Currents: East Asian History and
>>> Culture Review" Available Online (Center for Korean Studies)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 10:15:24 -0700
>>> From: brianhwang at berkeley.edu
>>> To: koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws
>>> Subject: [KS] Discussion Question
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <7cb59ce69b486f3c15e6bba3e396a6d4.squirrel at calmail.berkeley.edu>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8
>>>
>>> Hello all:
>>>
>>> I am a history student at University of California, Berkeley.
>>> Currently I
>>> am working on a paper regarding Korean involvement in the
>>> Vietnam War. My
>>> argument is that although Korean soldiers were 1) mercenaries
>>> (because
>>> they were paid predominantly by US dollars to go) and 2) anti
>>> communists
>>> (because of past history), the atrocities that they are accused of
>>> committing are not primarily due to the aforementioned reasons, but
>>> because of the type of warfare that they had to fight in Vietnam,
>>> including guerrilla warfare and civilian warfare.
>>>
>>> Do you all think this is a valid argument? Are there any primary
>>> sources
>>> that would help me in my argument, including ones that attribute
>>> Korean
>>> atrocities to their mercenary and anticommunist nature?
>>>
>>> Thank you!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 11:00:21 -0700
>>> From: "Center for Korean Studies" <cks at berkeley.edu>
>>> To: <koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
>>> Subject: [KS] March 2012 Issue of "Cross-Currents: East Asian
>>> History
>>> and Culture Review" Available Online
>>> Message-ID: <037401cd199f$4b410820$e1c31860$@berkeley.edu
>>> <mailto:037401cd199f$4b410820$e1c31860$@berkeley.edu>>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> March 2012 Issue of "Cross-Currents: East Asian History and
>>> Culture Review" now online
>>>
>>> The second issue of IEAS's new, interactive e-journal
>>> "Cross-Currents: East Asian History and Culture Review" is now
>>> online. The theme of the March 2012 issue is "Japanese Imperial
>>> Maps as Sources for East Asian History: The Past and Future of
>>> the Gaih?zu" (guest edited by K?ren Wigen, professor of History
>>> at Stanford). Visit
>>> http://cross-currents.berkeley.edu/e-journal/issue-2 to read the
>>> articles, a review essay written by Timothy Cheek (University of
>>> British Columbia) about Ezra Vogel's new book on Deng Xiaoping,
>>> and abstracts of important new scholarship in Chinese. The March
>>> issue of the e-journal also features a photo essay by Jianhua
>>> Gong documenting Shanghai's longtang alleyways.
>>>
>>> A joint enterprise of the Research Institute of Korean Studies
>>> at Korea University (RIKS) and the Institute of East Asian
>>> Studies at the University of California at Berkeley (IEAS),
>>> "Cross-Currents" offers its readers up-to-date research
>>> findings, emerging trends, and cutting-edge perspectives
>>> concerning East Asian history and culture from scholars in both
>>> English-speaking and Asian language-speaking academic communities.
>>>
>>>
>>> * * ** **
>>>
>>>
>>> March 2012 issue of "Cross-Currents" e-journal
>>> (See http://cross-currents.berkeley.edu/e-journal/issue-2)
>>>
>>> *Co-Editors' Note*
>>>
>>> Building an Online Community of East Asia Scholars
>>> Sungtaek Cho, Research Institute of Korean Studies (RIKS), Korea
>>> University
>>> Wen-hsin Yeh, Institute of East Asian Studies (IEAS), University
>>> of California, Berkeley
>>>
>>> *Japanese Imperial Maps as Sources for East Asian History: The
>>> Past and Future of the Gaihozu*
>>>
>>> Introduction to "Japanese Imperial Maps as Sources for East
>>> Asian History: The Past and Future of the Gaihozu"
>>> Guest editor K?ren Wigen, Stanford University
>>>
>>> Japanese Mapping of Asia-Pacific Areas, 1873-1945: An Overview
>>> Shigeru Kobayashi, Osaka University
>>>
>>> Imagining Manmo: Mapping the Russo-Japanese Boundary Agreements
>>> in Manchuria and Inner Mongolia, 1907-1915
>>> Yoshihisa T. Matsusaka, Wellesley College
>>>
>>> Triangulating Chosen: Maps, Mapmaking, and the Land Survey in
>>> Colonial Korea
>>> David Fedman, Stanford University
>>>
>>> Mapping Economic Development: The South Seas Government and
>>> Sugar Production in Japan's South Pacific Mandate, 1919--1941
>>> Ti Ngo, University of California, Berkeley
>>>
>>> *Forum*
>>>
>>> Asian Studies/Global Studies: Transcending Area Studies and
>>> Social Sciences
>>> John Lie, University of California, Berkeley/
>>>
>>> Defenders and Conquerors: The Rhetoric of Royal Power in Korean
>>> Inscriptions from the Fifth to Seventh Centuries
>>> Hung-gyu Kim, Korea University
>>>
>>> *Review Essays and Notes*
>>>
>>> Of Leaders and Governance: How the Chinese Dragon Got Its Scales
>>> Timothy Cheek, University of British Columbia
>>>
>>> A Note on the 40th Anniversary of Nixon's Visit to China
>>> William C. Kirby, Harvard University
>>>
>>> *Photo Essay*
>>>
>>> "Shanghai Alleyways" by photographer Jianhua Gong
>>> Essay by Xiaoneng Yang, Stanford University
>>>
>>> *Readings from Asia*
>>>
>>> Ge Zhaoguang , Dwelling in the Middle of the Country:
>>> Reestablishing Histories of "China" [????:????"??"???]
>>> Abstract by Wennan Liu, Chinese Academy of Social Sciences
>>>
>>> Wang Qisheng, Revolution and Counter-Revolution: Republican
>>> Politics in Social-Cultural Scope [???????????????????]
>>> Abstract by Bin Ye, Shanghai Academy of Social Sciences
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>
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