[KS] the danger of "orientalism"

Andrew Carter mongwon77 at yahoo.com.au
Fri May 9 03:43:46 EDT 2003


I know this is not an overly scholarly contribution but last time I used the word "oriental" to describe an "asian" person (that is, someone who I guessed came from China, Korea, Japan or somewhere in that vacinity), I nearly got my lights punched out by a female post-colonialist acquaintance of mine.  It was more a slip of the tongue, as I see myself as one who follows post-colonial theory.  Yet, such anachronistic vocabularly, with the heavy baggage that it brings, can be offensive and, as in my case, present a danger to one's physical well-being.   Further, I don't know if anyone else has raised this but, the fact is that "Asia" (a-si-a) is now becoming widely used in Korean -- though I'm not sure about other Asian languages.  To me, this demonstrates that though it is a constructed concept and largely geopolitically incorrect, it is being appropriated by people in places we might call Asian, not simply imposed by westerners.  These two things suggest to me that terms like "oriental" should be kept safely within inverted commas.   Andrew Carter
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<<------------ KoreanStudies mailing list DIGEST ------------>>


Today's Topics:

1. Re: Does "the Orient" still exist? (Victor Atknine)
2. Re: Does "the Orient" still exist? (Vladimir Tikhonov)
3. Re: Does "the Orient" still exist? (Keith Howard)
4. Misunderstanding Hanja (dbaker at interchange.ubc.ca)
5. Korean women rulers (Jbopfell at aol.com)
6. Re: Does "the Orient" still exist? (lawrence driscoll)
7. Re: Does "the Orient"...? 1 vote for "Asian Studies" (Kenneth G. Corwin)

--__--__--

Message: 1
From: "Victor Atknine" 
To: 
Subject: Re: [KS] Does "the Orient" still exist?
Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 08:03:21 -0400
Reply-To: Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Hello,
this is to respond to DSChirkov's message.=20
The faculty's original name is precisely "Vostochnyi fakul'tet", =
"Oriental (lit. "Eastern) Faculty". There is no word "African" in it.=20
Though it may sound rude, here is my question: is this about "political =
correctness"? If yes, here are my suggestions to politically correct =
persons.
If "Oriental" is bad, according to "Sweden's postcolonial thinking", =
then "Asian" isn't good either, because it implies the Asian vs. =
European (or American) controversy :). I suggest using capitals only. =
Department of A(sian) Languages, or Department of AA (Asian and African) =
Languages. However that's bad, too, because alphabetically A precedes =
E(uropean) or IE (Indo-European). That's not politically correct.=20
Just for reference. Like in China later, there had been a name change =
movement in Russia. In 1930, The Asian Museum (Aziatskii Muzei) in St. =
Petersburg (then - Leningrad) was renamed to The Institute for Oriental =
Studies (Institut Vostokovedeniya). I am curious to hear would anybody =
blame Russian academicians and Academy bosses for propagation of =
colonial ideas.=20
Victor Atknine.

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charset=3Diso-8859-1">




Hello,
this is to respond to DSChirkov's =
message.=20

The faculty's original name is =
precisely=20
"Vostochnyi fakul'tet", "Oriental (lit. "Eastern) Faculty". There is no =
word=20
"African" in it. 
Though it may sound rude, here is my =
question: is=20
this about "political correctness"? If yes, here are my=20
suggestions to politically correct persons.
If "Oriental" is bad, according to =
"Sweden's=20
postcolonial thinking", then "Asian" isn't good either, because it=20
implies the Asian vs. European (or American) controversy :). I =
suggest=20
using capitals only. Department of A(sian) Languages, or Department of =
AA (Asian=20
and African) Languages. However that's bad, too, because =
alphabetically A=20
precedes E(uropean) or IE (Indo-European). That's not politically =
correct.=20

Just for reference. Like in China =
later, there had=20
been a name change movement in Russia. In 1930, The Asian Museum =
(Aziatskii=20
Muzei) in St. Petersburg (then - Leningrad) was renamed to The Institute =
for=20
Oriental Studies (Institut Vostokovedeniya). size=3D2>I am curious to hear would anybody blame Russian =
academicians=20
and Academy bosses for propagation of colonial ideas. 
Victor =
Atknine.

------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C31538.4AE3C9A0--



--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 14:21:47 +0200
To: Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws
From: Vladimir Tikhonov 
Subject: Re: [KS] Does "the Orient" still exist?
Reply-To: Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws

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Of course, it is plainly obvious - and it was actually understood even 
before E.Said's seminal work - that terms like "Orient" or "Occident" had 
been imagined, defined, and re-defined with very obvious political agendas 
in mind. But, then, "Asia", for example, is an equally imaginary unit, and 
in Russian, the word "Asiatic" has been, in times, loaded with even worse 
pejorative meanings that rather romantically sounding "oriental" - 
remember, for example, still oft-used word "aziatchina" ("Asian [societal 
or political forms]" - in many contexts coterminous with "despotism" or 
"tyranny"). So, renaming The Faculty of Oriental Studies into, say, Faculty 
of Asian and African Research hardly will cut off the links to the 
"disgraceful past". Wouldn't it be wiser to respect the legacy of the 
"Orientalist" past while simultaneously trying to be conscious about all 
kinds of political agendas in our research work and avoid certain traps our 
predecessors did not manage to avoid? That remaining doesn't necessarily 
correspond to the real change, is shown very well by the example of An'gibu 
which is KukchOngwOn now - Hanch'ongnyOn students didn't get any better 
treatment under the new signboard.

Vladimir


At 10:46 08.05.2003 +0200, you wrote:

>It need not be emphasized that the Russian tradition has from its outset 
>been (a rather splendid) and thus acknowledged part of the European 
>academic tradition.
>However, it should be pointed out that in spite of obvious "colonial 
>vestiges" there is substantial reason for maintaining Faculties of 
>Oriental Studies: For instance, East Asian history of thought most 
>obviously cannot be understood without reference to Indian and Central 
>Asian developments. Vice versa, traditional Indology is heavly dependent 
>on the knowledge of Chinese texts....
>The belated opposition against suspected forms of "Orientalism" might in 
>fact mirror a certain preoccupation with political notions of the 20th century.
>
>Joerg Plassen
>Ruhr-Universitaet Bochum
>
>
>
>
>CHIRKOV D S wrote:
>
>>Greetings,
>>
>>Tikhonov writes that "The faculty I graduated from in St-Petersbourg, 
>>remains "Oriental" - and, I guess, will not change the name."
>>
>>What, however, proves the point that "oriental" is an imperialist 
>>vestige, is the fact, that in St.-Petersburg, there is not simply an 
>>Oriental Studies Faculty, but a Faculty of Oriental and African Studies (!).
>>
>>What brings scholars to intellectually group Korean Studies with Persian, 
>>African, and Georgian is clear: a Russian attempt to mimic European modes 
>>of education.
>
>>
>>It is ironic to note, that until recently, Europe considered that Russia 
>>itself, is, the Orient.
>>
>>It is high time that one of the largest countries in Asia - Russia - take 
>>steps to integrate itself into the East Asian context. Removing outmoded 
>>distinctions based on a colonial understanding of the world is in order.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Chirkov.
>>dchirkov (at) fas harvard edu
>
>
>--
>------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Dr. Joerg Plassen, (Jun.Prof. Geistesgeschichte Koreas)
>Ruhr-Universitaet Bochum
>Fakultaet fuer Ostasienwissenschaften
>Sprache und Kultur Koreas
>D-44780 Bochum
>Germany
>
>eMail: joerg.plassen at ruhr-uni-bochum.de
>Tel. (off.) : +49-(0)234-32-22919
>Fax (off.) : +49-(0)234-32-14747
>Tel. (priv.) : +49-(0)234-798-1235
>
>
>
>

Vladimir Tikhonov,
Department of East European and Oriental Studies,
Faculty of Arts,
University of Oslo,
P.b. 1030, Blindern, 0315, Oslo, Norway.
Fax: 47-22854140; Tel: 47-22857118
Personal web page: 
http://www.geocities.com/volodyatikhonov/volodyatikhonov.html
Electronic classrooms: East Asian/Korean Society and Politics:
http://www.geocities.com/uioeastasia2002/main.html
East Asian/Korean Religion and Philosophy:
http://www.geocities.com/uioeastasia2003/classroom.html

----------

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Of course, it is plainly obvious - and it was actually understood even
before E.Said's seminal work - that terms like "Orient" or
"Occident" had been imagined, defined, and re-defined with very
obvious political agendas in mind. But, then, "Asia", for
example, is an equally imaginary unit, and in Russian, the word
"Asiatic" has been, in times, loaded with even worse pejorative
meanings that rather romantically sounding "oriental" -
remember, for example, still oft-used word "aziatchina"
("Asian [societal or political forms]" - in many contexts
coterminous with "despotism" or "tyranny"). So,
renaming The Faculty of Oriental Studies into, say, Faculty of Asian and
African Research hardly will cut off the links to the "disgraceful
past". Wouldn't it be wiser to respect the legacy of the
"Orientalist" past while simultaneously trying to be conscious
about all kinds of political agendas in our research work and avoid
certain traps our predecessors did not manage to avoid? That remaining
doesn't necessarily correspond to the real change, is shown very well by
the example of An'gibu which is KukchOngwOn now - Hanch'ongnyOn students
didn't get any better treatment under the new signboard.



Vladimir   





At 10:46 08.05.2003 +0200, you wrote:



It need not be emphasized that the
Russian tradition has from its outset been (a rather splendid) and thus
acknowledged part of the European academic tradition.

However, it should be pointed out that in spite of obvious "colonial
vestiges" there is substantial reason for maintaining Faculties of
Oriental Studies: For instance, East Asian history of thought most
obviously cannot be understood without reference to Indian and Central
Asian  developments. Vice versa, traditional Indology is heavly
dependent on the knowledge of Chinese texts....

The belated opposition against suspected forms of "Orientalism"
might in fact mirror a certain preoccupation with political notions of
the 20th century.



Joerg Plassen

Ruhr-Universitaet Bochum









CHIRKOV D S wrote:



Greetings,



Tikhonov writes that "The faculty I graduated from in
St-Petersbourg, remains "Oriental" - and, I guess, will not
change the name."



What, however, proves the point that "oriental" is an
imperialist vestige, is the fact, that in St.-Petersburg, there is not
simply an Oriental Studies Faculty, but a Faculty of Oriental and African
Studies (!).



What brings scholars to intellectually group Korean Studies with Persian,
African, and Georgian is clear: a Russian attempt to mimic European modes
of education.



It is ironic to note, that until recently, Europe considered that Russia
itself, is, the Orient.



It is high time that one of the largest countries in Asia - Russia - take
steps to integrate itself into the East Asian context. Removing outmoded
distinctions based on a colonial understanding of the world is in
order.



Regards,

Chirkov.

dchirkov (at) fas harvard edu





-- 

------------------------------------------------------------



Dr. Joerg Plassen, (Jun.Prof. Geistesgeschichte Koreas)

Ruhr-Universitaet Bochum

Fakultaet fuer Ostasienwissenschaften

Sprache und Kultur Koreas

D-44780 Bochum

Germany



eMail: joerg.plassen at ruhr-uni-bochum.de

Tel. (off.)  : +49-(0)234-32-22919

Fax  (off.)  : +49-(0)234-32-14747

Tel. (priv.) : +49-(0)234-798-1235












Vladimir Tikhonov,

Department of East European and Oriental Studies,

Faculty of Arts,

University of Oslo,

P.b. 1030, Blindern, 0315, Oslo, Norway.

Fax: 47-22854140; Tel: 47-22857118

Personal web page:
eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.geocities.com/volodyatikhonov/volodyatikhonov=
.html

Electronic classrooms: East Asian/Korean Society and Politics:

            &nbs=
p;         
eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.geocities.com/uioeastasia2002/main. href=3D"http://www.geocities.com/uioeastasia2002/main.html"=
eudora=3D"autourl">html

            =
          
East Asian/Korean Religion and Philosophy:

            &nbs=
p;         
eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.geocities.com href=3D"http://www.geocities.com/uioeastasia2003/classroom.html"=
eudora=3D"autourl">/uioeastasia2003/classroom.html


---------------------------------



--=====================_15461472==_.ALT--



--__--__--

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 14:25:16 +0000
To: Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws
From: Keith Howard 
Subject: Re: [KS] Does "the Orient" still exist?
Reply-To: Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws

Speaking from my desk in SOAS -- the School of Oriental and African 
Studies -- I have some sympathy for the thread of discussion, but 
doubt that suitable alternatives can be found. SOAS has been here 
before (my memory of what follows, though, may not be completely 
accurate). In the early 1990s we had lots of discussions about a name 
change, because of the connotations of 'Oriental' and its associated 
terms. Should we become 'School of Asian and African Studies' (no, 
because the acronym looked bad in English, besides which we would 
then limit ourselves to an area called 'Asia' that may or may not 
include so many places we consider integral to us, such as the Middle 
East and Siberia). Then again, we teach about diasporas, and 
certainly include the Caribbean, and we considered joining other area 
studies operations in London, including the 'School of Slavonic and 
East European Studies' (I might have the name slightly wrong), to 
become 'SAS' ('School of Area Studies', or, hopefully capturing the 
whole field, 'School of All Studies'). Again, though, the acronym 
quickly led to us abandoning that proposal. 'SOS', which would have 
kept the Oriental within its 19th century conceptual frame, didn't 
get a look in for obvious reasons.

Our solution, for what it is worth, was to remain 'SOAS'. Rarely, 
though, do you see us write the name out, so 'Oriental' need not be 
mentioned in discussions. The SOAS logo, a green tree of dubious 
provenance in an exact colour shade, plus 'SOAS' in gold writing 
underneath, now forms our trademark, without any expansion to explain 
that this stands for 'School of Oriental and African Studies'. On 
balance, we agreed that we're stuck with the name. I know this is a 
cop out, but perhaps it no longer matters; in other words, I'm not 
sure that terms like "Oriental", "the Orient" and "orientals" are as 
controversial as Tobias presumes. Certainly, when Edward Said gave a 
lecture here at SOAS back in February, he made no reference to our 
unfortunate name.

-- 
Dr Keith Howard
Senior Lecturer in Music, SOAS,
Director, AHRB Research Centre for Cross-Cultural Music and Dance
Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square, London WC1H 0XG
Tel: 020 7898 4687; Mobile: 07815 812144; Fax: 020 7898 4519


--__--__--

Message: 4
From: 
To: Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws
Organization: Interchange, UBC
Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 08:34:56 -0700
Subject: [KS] Misunderstanding Hanja
Reply-To: Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws

I thought one of the linguists on the list would reply to William Brown's comments about the alleged barriers Chinese characters and the Chinese language raise to abstract thinking. However, since no one else has responded, I'll step forward.

He says, "there was no algebra, calculus etc. in China until the modern era." That is incorrect. In fact, for most of the last 2,000 years mathematics in China (and in Korea as well, since Koreans learned their math from China) was more advanced in many areas, including algebra, than the West was. Li Yan and Du Shiran's history of Chinese mathematics, as well as volume 3 of Joseph Needham's Science and Civilization in China, provide plenty of evidence for the high level of algebra in traditional Chinese mathematics. Chinese characters clearly did not present a barrier to abstract thought by mathematicians. 

He also says that Chinese is a monosyllabic language,and that the monosyllabic nature of Chinese vocabulary items has hindered abstract thinking not only in China but in Korea and Japan as well. John DeFrancis laid that myth to rest in his chapter on "The monosyllabic myth" in The Chinese Language, Fact and Fantasy. Anybody who has spent much time reading texts written in Hanmun, or even just looking through Chinese language dictionaries, is well aware that there are many multi-syllabic words in Chinese. As for Chinese characters being a poor tool for expressing abstract ideas, just try translating Neo-Confucian concepts such as li and ki into English!

--
Don Baker
Director, Centre for Korean Research
Interim Head, Department of Asian Studies
University of British Columbia
Vancouver, BC V6T 1Z2 CANADA





--__--__--

Message: 5
From: Jbopfell at aol.com
Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 12:10:45 EDT
To: koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws
Subject: [KS] Korean women rulers
Reply-To: Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws



May 8, 2003
Ladies and Gentlemen:

In preparing our worldwide biographical dictionary of women government 
leaders since A. D. 1300, my wife and I need material, and pictures where 
possible, of the Korean leaders described in the appended text. This text 
presents all the information we have found so far. Your comments on this 
text and any additional material or guidance you can offer will be greatly 
appreciated. Have we found all the Korean women rulers? Are their dates 
correct?

Sincerely,


John B. Opfell
1007 Park Circle Drive
Torrance, California 90502
jbopfell at aol.com

Cong-hui ( ), Regent Dowager Queen of Korea, 1468 to 1477, for son 
Yejung and grandson Sohgjung.
http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/korea_heads.htm

Mun-jong ( ), Regent Dowager Queen of Korea, 1534-45/52 or 
1554-55/62 
http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/korea_heads.htm

In-su ( ), Regent Dowager Queen of Korea, 1567 to 1568
http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/korea_heads.htm

Kim Chong-sun (1745-1805). Regent Dowager Queen of Korea, 1800 to 1805
was regent for her grandson King Sunjo (Yi Kwang, 1800 to 1834). Kim 
Chong-sun Wang-hu was Senior Great Queen Regent for her grandson. She was 
widow of King Yongjo (Yi Kum, 1724 to 1776). She was the daughter of Kim 
Han-ku, Prince Ohung who had two sons and twelve daughters, all by 
concubines.
http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/korea_heads.htm
http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Korea_South.htm
http://www.4de.net/royalark/Korea/korea7.htm

Kim Sun-wo Wang-ho (1789-1857), Regent Dowager Queen of Korea, 1834 and 1849 
to 1850, First regent for Hon-jong (1834 to 1849) and then for Ch`ol-jong 
(1849 to 1864) who died 1864. 
http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/korea_heads.htm
http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Korea_South.htm
http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Korea/korea7.htm

Cho Sin-chong (1809-1890), Regent Dowager Queen of Korea, 1864 to 1866. She 
was regent for Ko-jong King and Emperor (1864 to 1907). She may have been 
the widow of King Yi Chung (Ch'oljong) (1849 to 1864)
Prince Munjo, the son of King Sunjo (1790-1834), the 23rd king of the Yi 
(Choson) dynasty, did not live long enough to reign. Munjo married at age 11 
and died at 21. His father loved him greatly and ordered a kingly tomb built 
for him. The prince was given the title of Ik-jong posthumously. His widow 
was Queen Jo (Cho Sin-chong) who was buried near him in 1890. Three years 
before Ik-jong's death, the queen gave birth to a son who later became King 
Honjong, the 24th king. Dowager Jo lived to be 81. She was responsible for 
installing Gojong (Kojong) on the throne as the 26th king in 1864. 
http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/korea_heads.htm
http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Korea_South.htm
http://www.orientalarchitecture.com/kyonggi/donggureungindex.htm

Wun-song (1851-1895), de facto ruler of Korea, 1864 to 1894, officially named 
Min Hun Yo; Myongsong was her posthumous name. During her lifetime she was 
generally known as Queen Min. She was the de facto ruler and opposed the 
Japanese domination. She was assassinated by Japanese soldiers. Daughter of 
Regent Min Ch'irok (1873 to 1894), she married Regent Hung-son Tae-won Gun 
(1864 to 1873), and was mother (?) of Emperor Kojong (1897 to 1907). She 
lived (1851-95)
http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/korea_heads.htm
http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Korea_South.htm



--__--__--

Message: 6
From: "lawrence driscoll" 
To: Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws
Subject: Re: [KS] Does "the Orient" still exist?
Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 16:14:42 +0000
Reply-To: Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws

In North America, the term "oriental" evolved in the minds of many, as a 
word used to describe a type of carpet. No one wants to be identified with 
an object made to be tread upon. Quite understandably. Thus the expression 
"Asian American" becomes the new and acceptable norm.
Best regards,
Lawrence Driscoll



>From: Frank Hoffmann 
>Reply-To: Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws
>To: Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws
>Subject: Re: [KS] Does "the Orient" still exist?
>Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 19:26:34 -0700
>
>
>>This question seems to be obviously related to "Language Change".
>
>More than just language change, I would hope!
>
>>I wonder if some of the negative meanings this word carries are also 
>>visible in the Old World. My colleage (A. Huwe) confirms that the German 
>>equivalent 'orientalisch' does not bear such meanings. The German word is 
>>also claimed to be associated with some motives like Arabian Nights.
>
>Sure, and the negro is associated with Uncle Tom's Cabin, but somehow we 
>don't use it anymore.
>
>In the state of Washington "oriental" and "orientalism" is prohibited from 
>all official state documents:
>http://www.politicalcircus.com/archive/article_674.shtml
>--->>
>Gov. Locke Signs Bill Against Use of Term "Oriental"
>Apr 3, 2002
>By RPG Newswire
>OLYMPIA, WASHINGTON (RPG Newswire) - Washington State Governor Gary Locke 
>recently signed into law a bill that prohibits the use of the word 
>"Oriental" on all state and local government statutes, codes, rules, 
>regulations, and other official documents. The law takes effect on July 1, 
>2002.
>(...)
>
>--
>______________________________________________________
>Frank Hoffmann
>http://KoreaWeb.ws * Fax: (415) 727-4792

_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail



--__--__--

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 15:10:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Kenneth G. Corwin" 
Subject: Re: [KS] Does "the Orient"...? 1 vote for "Asian Studies"
To: Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws
Reply-To: Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws

Hello fellow listmembers. Re: thoughts on what
to name the department which specializes in
studying things and people from Asia:

"Asian Studies" is clear and specific. "Oriental
Studies" is understood based on varying
interpretations of the term "oriental", from
"anything east of the Tigris" to "those people
who look Chinese" to "whoever Queen Victoria said
wasn't occidental".

It may seem simplistic, but imagine, if you will,
a secondary school student deciding what to focus
on in university. "I've always found Cambodia
intriguing," she thinks, "but this school only
has an Oriental Studies program. I have no
interest in Turkey. I guess I'll seek my college
education elsewhere." (An ivory tower type might
smugly say, "What school wants a knucklehead like
that?" To which I would reply, "It is your job
to teach the knuckleheads and correct their
knuckleheaded ways.")

At New York University (10 years ago, anyway),
the opposite story took place. There was an
undergraduate class offered called "Orientalism":
it was a study of the Near East and its
influence on Western culture from the
Enlightenment through World War I. Apparently,
many students were disappointed, having taken the
class because they thought it would be a survey
of Northeast Asian and/or Southeast Asian
countries and cultures.

I would suggest that the use of the term "Asian
Studies" would be preferable as it is both
accurate and widely encompassing. There is
little doubt as to whether one is talking about
something originating in the Asian landmass or
its surrounding archipelagoes when one says
"Asian Studies". 

On the other hand, as this ongoing discussion
makes evident, the term "Oriental Studies" is
subjective and therefore open to
misinterpretation, and even insulting in some
countries.

This, of course, reflects my own value system of
preference for clear and accurate descriptions of
university departments.

Sincerely,
Ken Corwin
New York City






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