[KS] Chinese "control" over Choson

[Mark Peterson]

Greetings Don, Mike, Gari and all y'all,

On the subject of clandestine ceremonies to the Ming, carried out 
without Qing knowledge:

When I was working on my dissertation and spending a lot of time at the 
Kyujanggak, I met a man who was looking up things on his ancestors by 
the name of P'ung -- odd name for Korea, right?  It is two-water 
radical with horse, ma, pronounced P'ung, or Feng in Chinese.  
Obviously a name of Chinese origin, that man explained that his 
ancestor was in the Ming army that came to rescue Korea from Hideyoshi. 
  The man explained that his first ancestor to come to Korea was a 
soldier, a general (of course), who thought it better to stay in Korea.

Mr. P'ung told me about the site in (was it?) Kap'yøng county, east of 
Seoul, where every year, he and a group of Ming loyalists met to carry 
out ceremonies to the founder of the Ming dynasty.  I asked about it, 
and he offered to take me there.  The timing did not work out to visit 
the ceremony, but we went to the site.  It was fascinating. From the 
road one could not see anything noteworthy, but as you walked up to the 
cliff, to a steep hillside that climbed upward away from you, there was 
a notch in the rocks that allowed you to go around behind a set of 
prominent rocks.  And there, tucked away from the view of others, 
around behind a huge boulder, on the rock surface was carved in huge 
characters was "da ming" (tae myøng).  Each character was about three 
feet tall, standing vertically with the top about ten feet off the 
floor.  Was there an alter there?, I'm trying to remember.  At any 
rate, on that spot from the fall of Da Ming until that day in 1977 they 
had continued the ceremonies.

Mr. P'ung bragged that Korea was the only country in the world that 
still carries out the ceremonies to the Ming -- "why, they don't even 
do that in Taiwan!"

So, did post-Qing Chosøn carry out secret affairs behind Qing's back?  
Yes.  Did they use the Ming calendar, continuing to repeat the reign 
year of the last emperor up to the fifth 60-year cycle?  Yes, on 
documents that Qing envoy's would not see.  And did they carry out 
ceremonies honoring Ming?  Yes, but in a place far removed and safe 
from the possible viewing and hearing of the Qing envoys (and other 
possible snitches, I would suppose).

Has anyone else on this list been to the "Da Ming" ceremonial site, I 
wonder?  Are the ceremonies still going on?  Would someone in Seoul, 
please call one of the P'ung's in the phone book and ask about it?

best,
Mark Peterson




On Mar 17, 2006, at 1:02 AM, Baker Don wrote:

> I wasn't claiming that Korea was completely under China's control 
> during the Choson dynasty. Korea had a de facto independent foreign 
> policy, but formally they were subservient to China. (Somewhat like 
> the independence of Taiwan today. It too is an independent country in 
> all but name.)  At times, however, that formal subservience hindered 
> their freedom of action and kept them from carrying out an independent 
> foreign policy openly.
> The notes I remember from the SIllok said things like, "we'll be in 
> trouble if China finds out that we are accepting tribute missions from 
> the Kingdom of the Ryukyus." Whether or not China actually acted to 
> stop Korea's dealings with its neighbors, Korea was certainly 
> concerned China might do so. We also have cases of Korea bribing 
> Chinese envoys so that they wouldn't report Korea's dealing with other 
> peoples to the Emperor (for example, when some of the stranded Dutch 
> contacted a Chinese envoy in Seoul in the 17th century). And, of 
> course, we all know that the famed 1882 friendship treaty between 
> Korea and the US was actually negotiated by the US and China. Korea 
> was simply handed the treaty China had negotiated on its behalf and 
> told to sign it. As for Korea standing up to the Qing, didn't they 
> hide their altar to the Ming Emperors? As for border disputes with the 
> Qing (Andre, correct me if I am wrong here), rather than boldly 
> confronting the Qing, didn't they try to trick them into accepting a 
> border farther north than the Qing originally wanted?
> In some ways, Korea's behavior during the Choson dynasty reminds me of 
> Korea's behavior in the 1960s and the 1970s. American congressmen I 
> talked to in the 1970s thought that the South Korean government was 
> under the control of the US. They bragged of US advisors in every 
> government ministry, as though their very presence gave them actual 
> power. Of course, as we all know, Park let the Americans think that 
> they were in charge, when that served what he thought was Korea's best 
> interest, but he controlled what went on in Korea, not the Americans. 
> Perhaps the Choson dynasty experience of often exercising actual 
> autonomy but pretending to always follow the dictates of a stronger 
> power helped Korea in the 2nd half of the 20th century deal 
> effectively with American hegemony.
>
> Don Baker
> Associate Professor, Department of Asian Studies
> Director, Centre for Korean Research
> University of British Columbia
> Vancouver, Canada V6T 1Z2
> dbaker at interchange.ubc.ca
>
>
>
>
>> From: "Michael Robinson" <robime at indiana.edu>
>> Reply-To: Korean Studies Discussion List <Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
>> To: "Korean Studies Discussion List" <Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
>> Subject: Re: [KS] Chinese "control" over Choson
>> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 16:53:39 -0500
>>
>> Don:
>>
>> I wonder if you are reading a bit too much of the present into 
>> diplomatic useage and relations of the 17th century.  Certainly all 
>> governments (perhaps the U.S. as an exception) have to think about 
>> the ramifications of their international actions.  I'm thinking and 
>> have always thought that the way to characterize Korean 
>> "independence" has to do with effective non-interference.  Tell me if 
>> I'm wrong, but the Ch'ing didn't fuss too much about what ChosOn was 
>> doing after its initial incursions....what in 1627 and then a decade 
>> so or later.  Would the fact that the Koreans were sending missions 
>> to the Japanese provoke an invasion from China?  It seems in one of 
>> the best documented dealings with the Ch'ing (the border issues in 
>> the late 1700s) the Koreans stood rather toe to toe with their 
>> Chinese counterparts in negotiations.
>>
>> Mike Robinson
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Baker Don" <ubcdbaker at hotmail.com>
>> To: <Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
>> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 12:07 PM
>> Subject: [KS] Chinese "control" over Choson
>>
>>
>>> Mike's point about exaggeration of and over-emphasis on the degree 
>>> of control China exercised over Korea is a point well-taken. 
>>> However, we also don't  want to present the Choson dynasty as 
>>> totally independent. In the little bit of research I've done on the 
>>> foreign policy of the Choson dynasty, I found that Choson engaged in 
>>> independent diplomatic relations, but had to hide that fact from the 
>>> Chinese. I was focusing on early Choson's relations with the Kingdom 
>>> of the Ryukyus and with Japanese from Kyushu. Every once in a while, 
>>> I'd run across a statement in the sillok to the effect that "We 
>>> can't let China find out about this." Has anybody seen evidence of 
>>> that same need to hide Korea's diplomatic relations with Japanese 
>>> after 1600? Didn't Korea have to hide from China the fact that it 
>>> regularly sent envoys to Tokugawa Japan in the 17th and 18th 
>>> centuries? If that is the case, then we have to conclude the Choson 
>>> Korea wasn't a totally independent country, since an independent 
>>> country can conduct its own foreign policy without foreign 
>>> interference, something Choson could not do.
>>>
>>> Don Baker
>>> Associate Professor, Department of Asian Studies
>>> Director, Centre for Korean Research
>>> University of British Columbia
>>> Vancouver, Canada V6T 1Z2
>>> dbaker at interchange.ubc.ca
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: "Michael Robinson" <robime at indiana.edu>
>>>> Reply-To: Korean Studies Discussion List <Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
>>>> To: "Korean Studies Discussion List" <Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
>>>> Subject: Re: [KS] Choson period official dress
>>>> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:27:55 -0500
>>>>
>>>> Thank you Gari:
>>>>
>>>> I'm making a point in the first chapter about Chinese influence in 
>>>> the structure and look of the Choson government, not its interior 
>>>> operations. This ms is focused on Korea's twentieth century and the 
>>>> first chapter has to carry the weight of characterizing the ChosOn 
>>>> system and traditional society etc.  I'm literally down to a single 
>>>> sentence to handle some larger ideas. At least this reference won't 
>>>> be off.  We know ChosOn Korea was Korean, but I'm still surprised 
>>>> at all the references to Chinese control and dominance over Korea 
>>>> for "centuries and centuries" out there in the secondary 
>>>> literature.  I don't want to feed into that.  I will try not to 
>>>> abuse the list as a fact check.....but cutting a corner here and 
>>>> there is nice.
>>>>
>>>> thanks again,  Mike Robinson
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: <gkl1 at columbia.edu>
>>>> To: "Korean Studies Discussion List" <Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 11:55 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [KS] Choson period official dress
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If Henny says so I guess I must've said something about this once,
>>>>> but it's easier to repeat it than look up what I said. Yes, ChosOn
>>>>> dynasty court dress was identical with the court dress of the Ming
>>>>> dynasty, with the exception that the identical dress and emblems,
>>>>> etc. were two ranks (in the nine-rank scheme) lower in Korea. That
>>>>> is, the court dress of a Rank I (the highest rank) ChosOn official
>>>>> was identical to that of a Rank III official at the Ming court.
>>>>> This means that the last two ChosOn ranks, VIII and IX, had
>>>>> distinctive Korean designs.
>>>>>   When Korean official embassies reached the area just outside the
>>>>> Chaoyang (East) Gate of Peking, they changed into their formal
>>>>> court dress and marched in a procession into the city and through
>>>>> the streets to their residence. It is said that those Chinese who
>>>>> still nourished pro-Ming (and therefore anti-Manchu) sentiments
>>>>> would come to secretely enjoy the spectacle. There are many stories
>>>>> in embassy diaries and other casual literature about emotional
>>>>> scenes with Chinese begging to touch, or even briefly wear, the
>>>>> Korean formal clothing. Other than this, the only permitted display
>>>>> of Ming dress that was permitted in Qing China was in the theatre,
>>>>> since the Peking Opera was essentially a Ming institution, and the
>>>>> historical character of the stories made the dress of earlier
>>>>> dynasties appropriate. One consequence of this is that when Korean
>>>>> officials went through the streets of the capital on their
>>>>> business, less sophisticated spectators would point and say, "Look!
>>>>> Actors!"
>>>>>
>>>>> Gari Ledyard
>>>>>
>>>>> Quoting Michael Robinson <robime at indiana.edu>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear List:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is a small point but I thought someone out there might be more
>>>>>> up on this than myself.  Were the robes for Choson officials
>>>>>> patterned after the regalia of the Ming?  I'm saying this in a
>>>>>> throw away sentence in my new text...but perhaps this is wrong.
>>>>>> I'm wondering about the evolution of official dress since we are
>>>>>> dealing with half a millennium here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike Robinson
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>