[KS] Chinese "control" over Choson

[Baker Don]

I wasn't claiming that Korea was completely under China's control during 
the Choson dynasty. Korea had a de facto independent foreign policy, but 
formally they were subservient to China. (Somewhat like the independence of 
Taiwan today. It too is an independent country in all but name.)  At times, 
however, that formal subservience hindered their freedom of action and kept 
them from carrying out an independent foreign policy openly. 

The notes I remember from the SIllok said things like, "we'll be in trouble 
if China finds out that we are accepting tribute missions from the Kingdom 
of the Ryukyus." Whether or not China actually acted to stop Korea's 
dealings with its neighbors, Korea was certainly concerned China might do 
so. We also have cases of Korea bribing Chinese envoys so that they 
wouldn't report Korea's dealing with other peoples to the Emperor (for 
example, when some of the stranded Dutch contacted a Chinese envoy in Seoul 
in the 17th century). And, of course, we all know that the famed 1882 
friendship treaty between Korea and the US was actually negotiated by the 
US and China. Korea was simply handed the treaty China had negotiated on 
its behalf and told to sign it. As for Korea standing up to the Qing, 
didn't they hide their altar to the Ming Emperors? As for border disputes 
with the Qing (Andre, correct me if I am wrong here), rather than boldly 
confronting the Qing, didn't they try to trick them into accepting a border 
farther north than the Qing originally wanted? 

In some ways, Korea's behavior during the Choson dynasty reminds me of 
Korea's behavior in the 1960s and the 1970s. American congressmen I talked 
to in the 1970s thought that the South Korean government was under the 
control of the US. They bragged of US advisors in every government 
ministry, as though their very presence gave them actual power. Of course, 
as we all know, Park let the Americans think that they were in charge, when 
that served what he thought was Korea's best interest, but he controlled 
what went on in Korea, not the Americans. Perhaps the Choson dynasty 
experience of often exercising actual autonomy but pretending to always 
follow the dictates of a stronger power helped Korea in the 2nd half of the 
20th century deal effectively with American hegemony. 


Don Baker
Associate Professor, 
Department of Asian Studies
Director, Centre for Korean Research
University of British Columbia
Vancouver, Canada V6T 1Z2
dbaker at interchange.ubc.ca




>From: "Michael Robinson" <robime at indiana.edu>
>Reply-To: Korean Studies Discussion List <Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
>To: "Korean Studies Discussion List" <Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
>Subject: Re: [KS] Chinese "control" over Choson
>Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 16:53:39 -0500
>
>Don:
>
>I wonder if you are reading a bit too much of the present into 
>diplomatic useage and relations of the 17th century.  Certainly all 
>governments (perhaps the U.S. as an exception) have to think about 
>the ramifications of their international actions.  I'm thinking and 
>have always thought that the way to characterize Korean 
>"independence" has to do with effective non-interference.  Tell me 
>if I'm wrong, but the Ch'ing didn't fuss too much about what ChosOn 
>was doing after its initial incursions....what in 1627 and then a 
>decade so or later.  Would the fact that the Koreans were sending 
>missions to the Japanese provoke an invasion from China?  It seems 
>in one of the best documented dealings with the Ch'ing (the border 
>issues in the late 1700s) the Koreans stood rather toe to toe with 
>their Chinese counterparts in negotiations.
>
>Mike Robinson
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Baker Don" 
><ubcdbaker at hotmail.com>
>To: <Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
>Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 12:07 PM
>Subject: [KS] Chinese "control" over Choson
>
>
>>Mike's point about exaggeration of and over-emphasis on the degree 
>>of control China exercised over Korea is a point well-taken. 
>>However, we also don't  want to present the Choson dynasty as 
>>totally independent. In the little bit of research I've done on the 
>>foreign policy of the Choson dynasty, I found that Choson engaged 
>>in independent diplomatic relations, but had to hide that fact from 
>>the Chinese. I was focusing on early Choson's relations with the 
>>Kingdom of the Ryukyus and with Japanese from Kyushu. Every once in 
>>a while, I'd run across a statement in the sillok to the effect 
>>that "We can't let China find out about this." Has anybody seen 
>>evidence of that same need to hide Korea's diplomatic relations 
>>with Japanese after 1600? Didn't Korea have to hide from China the 
>>fact that it regularly sent envoys to Tokugawa Japan in the 17th 
>>and 18th centuries? If that is the case, then we have to conclude 
>>the Choson Korea wasn't a totally independent country, since an 
>>independent country can conduct its own foreign policy without 
>>foreign interference, something Choson could not do.
>>
>>Don Baker
>>Associate Professor, Department of Asian Studies
>>Director, Centre for Korean Research
>>University of British Columbia
>>Vancouver, Canada V6T 1Z2
>>dbaker at interchange.ubc.ca
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: "Michael Robinson" <robime at indiana.edu>
>>>Reply-To: Korean Studies Discussion List 
>>><Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
>>>To: "Korean Studies Discussion List" <Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
>>>Subject: Re: [KS] Choson period official dress
>>>Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:27:55 -0500
>>>
>>>Thank you Gari:
>>>
>>>I'm making a point in the first chapter about Chinese influence in 
>>>the structure and look of the Choson government, not its interior 
>>>operations. This ms is focused on Korea's twentieth century and 
>>>the first chapter has to carry the weight of characterizing the 
>>>ChosOn system and traditional society etc.  I'm literally down to 
>>>a single sentence to handle some larger ideas. At least this 
>>>reference won't be off.  We know ChosOn Korea was Korean, but I'm 
>>>still surprised at all the references to Chinese control and 
>>>dominance over Korea for "centuries and centuries" out there in 
>>>the secondary literature.  I don't want to feed into that.  I will 
>>>try not to abuse the list as a fact check.....but cutting a corner 
>>>here and there is nice.
>>>
>>>thanks again,  Mike Robinson
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: <gkl1 at columbia.edu>
>>>To: "Korean Studies Discussion List" <Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 11:55 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [KS] Choson period official dress
>>>
>>>
>>>>If Henny says so I guess I must've said something about this 
>>>>once,
>>>>but it's easier to repeat it than look up what I said. Yes, 
>>>>ChosOn
>>>>dynasty court dress was identical with the court dress of the 
>>>>Ming
>>>>dynasty, with the exception that the identical dress and emblems,
>>>>etc. were two ranks (in the nine-rank scheme) lower in Korea. 
>>>>That
>>>>is, the court dress of a Rank I (the highest rank) ChosOn 
>>>>official
>>>>was identical to that of a Rank III official at the Ming court.
>>>>This means that the last two ChosOn ranks, VIII and IX, had
>>>>distinctive Korean designs.
>>>>   When Korean official embassies reached the area just outside 
>>>>the
>>>>Chaoyang (East) Gate of Peking, they changed into their formal
>>>>court dress and marched in a procession into the city and through
>>>>the streets to their residence. It is said that those Chinese who
>>>>still nourished pro-Ming (and therefore anti-Manchu) sentiments
>>>>would come to secretely enjoy the spectacle. There are many 
>>>>stories
>>>>in embassy diaries and other casual literature about emotional
>>>>scenes with Chinese begging to touch, or even briefly wear, the
>>>>Korean formal clothing. Other than this, the only permitted 
>>>>display
>>>>of Ming dress that was permitted in Qing China was in the 
>>>>theatre,
>>>>since the Peking Opera was essentially a Ming institution, and 
>>>>the
>>>>historical character of the stories made the dress of earlier
>>>>dynasties appropriate. One consequence of this is that when 
>>>>Korean
>>>>officials went through the streets of the capital on their
>>>>business, less sophisticated spectators would point and say, 
>>>>"Look!
>>>>Actors!"
>>>>
>>>>Gari Ledyard
>>>>
>>>>Quoting Michael Robinson <robime at indiana.edu>:
>>>>
>>>>>Dear List:
>>>>>
>>>>>It is a small point but I thought someone out there might be 
>>>>>more
>>>>>up on this than myself.  Were the robes for Choson officials
>>>>>patterned after the regalia of the Ming?  I'm saying this in a
>>>>>throw away sentence in my new text...but perhaps this is wrong.
>>>>>I'm wondering about the evolution of official dress since we are
>>>>>dealing with half a millennium here.
>>>>>
>>>>>Mike Robinson
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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