[KS] History, Fact, and Fantasy:Shrimp squashed by Fighting Whales?

[Kirk Larsen]

Two quick thoughts on what are some interesting and thought-provoking
questions and observations.

First, is the observation that attribution of proverbs or aphorisms to a
particular culture is often problematic and at least occasionally wholly
incorrect. I have often heard many in the U.S. nod sagely as the recite the
"Chinese curse": "May you live in interesting times." Never mind the fact
that repeated queries to Chinese friends and colleagues reveal that not
only have few if any heard of this "curse," the actual construction
(especially the "May you ....") is extremely difficult to render in natural
sounding Chinese. I, too, have often wondered where the "shrimp among
whales" idea comes from and suspect that even if there were a Korean
version/analogue, the popularity of the phrase may be due to its repeated
use in places other than Korea.

Second, as Mark Peterson has been fond of noting of late, the idea that
"Korea" has constantly been threatened and/or invaded by surrounding larger
powers simply doesn't match up with what we know of much of Korea's past.
It is indeed a fairly apt description of Chosôn Korea in the late
nineteenth century (surrounded by China, Russia, Japan and the newly
arrived Western maritime powers all of which had at least some degree of
interest in projecting power on the peninsula). But not nearly as apt in
earlier times. From the end of the Three Kingdoms wars of "unification" to
the late nineteenth century, there were arguably two instances in which
major outside powers fought in a way that directly endangered Korea: the
Hideyoshi invasions and the Mongol invasions of Japan. As devastating as
those events were for the inhabitants of the Korean peninsula, two events
over the span of well over a thousand years is an enviable record that few
European polities could even dream of claiming.

Cheers,

Kirk Larsen

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 2:50 AM, Kye C Kim <kc.kim2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have some questions for the historians. Or maybe it is a question better
> directed to literature specialist or linguists.
>
> *Non-Korean source for 고래 싸움에 새우 등 터진다?*
> What is the origin of the phrase "Shrimp is squashed in the Battle of
> Whales," or "고래 싸움에 새우 등 터진 격."  I have to confess that stylistically,
> this construction strikes me as relatively new, and possibly foreign in
> origin.  But I am probably wrong and wonder if anybody knows where this
> formulation is first attested.  Is it possible that this is a
> translation/adaptation of a foreign proverb, as is often the case with many
> English proverbs we think of as being native?  I guess I am here thinking
> of how "한자가 죽어야 나라가 산다,' which is often thought of as being purely Korean
> formulation when it fact it is actually a 飜案/adapted form of Lu Xun's
> "漢字不滅，中國必亡/한자불멸 중국필망"
>
> *"**고래 싸움에 새우 등 터진다" p**roverb as Argument?*
> This is often classed as a proverb; and as often is the case, viewed as a
> time tested general truth, it is often used as a statement or summary in
> discussions and arguments in Korea.  It has great appeal and power, and
> once the proverb is deployed, most discussants will stop arguing and find
> themselves nodding their heads in thoughtful agreement, overwhelmed by the
> proverbial wisdom and truth of the statement. End of discussion!
>
> *韓國의 宗敎 帝國主義/Korea's Religion, Imperialism?
> *"Korea's religion imperialism" is actually the title of an article by a
> Korean historian.  I misread the title and found myself wondering about the
> power and the role of the term *帝國主義/impersialism *in Korean intellectual
> history and its role in the modern/current discourse.* *Pretty much all
> public discourse is premised on this term or its corollary *植民主義**
> /colonialism*(this appears to have been a Japanese 4LW during the
> colonial times, occurring just once in 동아일보 before the end of WWII).  So we
> have 文化/言語/知識 帝國主義/植民主義 as being the dominant, or pretty much the only,
> framework for most discussions and reflections both politically and
> intellectually, thus the popularity of such books as "英語 내 마음의 植民主義,"
> itself sophistic given that word count would rather suggest "日語 내 마음의 植民主義"
> or maybe more comprehensively "植民主義 내 마음의 植民主義".  Is this a phenomenon
> peculiar to the history of Korean intellectual discourse?*
>
> What is the history of the companion term **事大主義?*
> 事大主義 with 主義 suffix for "ism" suggests that this too is a very new term.
> Any good pointers?
>
> Joobai Lee
> 12/14/2011
>
> PS
>
> I do wonder if Korea is a "Shrimp squashed by Fighting Whales"?  For all
> the squashing it sure is going strong, 2000 years strong.
>
> Looking at the 광주 thread, one gets the impression that the US may have
> been "played" 한비자 style, even if ultimately not wise.
>
> Sovereignty: It seems reasonable you get what you deserve and nations also
> get what they deserve.  And Korea should surely be proud of their democracy
> and success. I believe they earned it by the sweat of their own labor and
> the blood of their own sacrifice.  I think it more secure and the future
> more bright because nobody handed it to them. They took it and they are the
> masters, and as it should be. And I don't think anyone can doubt that in
> Korea Koreans are King, no matter what the story.  They are responsible, as
> I see it, for all success and all failures.  They are the masters of their
> own success and their failures, despite the rhetoric of shrimp caught
> between the whales.
>
>


-- 
Kirk W. Larsen
Department of History
2151 JFSB
BYU
Provo, UT 84602-6707
(801) 422-3445

*Tradition, Treaties, and Trade: Qing Imperialism and Chosôn Korea,
1850-1910* <http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674060739>
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