[KS] Egypt and Gwangju 1980

[don kirk]

Thanks for pointing out that link. I was pretty sure I had not referred to the 
demonstrators in Kwangju May 1980 as "mobs" or a "mob," and perusal of the piece 
you cite offers the evidence, or lack of evidence. I did use the term in a most 
general sense that you apparently don't like. Sorry about that.
Yes, one should always try to "go beyond" -- and beyond and beyond. This kind of 
ornate attempt at categorizing and connecting gets so far beyond, however, as to 
get out of touch with reality.
At the same time, again, you don't seem willing to accept or even consider the 
regional, social, class, and political and historical issues and differences 
that played into these events, Kwangju 1980, Democracy movement June 1987, the 
Mad Cow protests of 2008 and the mass demonstrations in the fall of 2002 after 
the deaths of the two schoolgirls run over by an American armored vehicle.
I was at all of these, night after night, which doesn't qualify me to analyze 
them as would a political scientist but did make me aware of a lot of other 
factors absent from this discussion.
Don Kirk





________________________________
From: Frank Hoffmann <hoffmann at koreaweb.ws>
To: Korean Studies Discussion List <koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 7:54:53 AM
Subject: Re: [KS] Egypt and Gwangju 1980

Dear all -- please let me try to clarify and put all into a clearer perspective 
(towards the end of this posting).

> (...) Kwangju as an uprising was essentially confined and isolated -- and does 
>not fit into any of these models or continuums so readily.

But South Korea as such does fit into various models. The task, of course, as we 
will likely all agree, is not to proof the validity of any models, the task is 
always to explain reality and to detect if there are any structural patterns -- 
given we mostly think in patters to be able to deal with our trillions of daily 
perceptions. The kind of action history PLUS the constructed connectivity that 
was presented on this list seems not helpful to get to terms then, to get any 
clues of what's happening (other than what is happening in each single case--BUT 
not even that, I would argue, as it is essential to understand structural 
changes to then understand each single case). That was the point I was trying to 
make.


> Incidentally, I don't recall describing the crowds that surged through Kwangju 
>as "mobs." That's not to say that I didn't -- just that I don't recall. If you 
>could remind me of the reference, I'd appreciate it.

Well, I only mentioned this because it did irritate me. The term "mob" has a 
specifically negative and outdated taste to it ... being a term for mafia as 
well as being mafia slang itself on the one hand, and in its older British 
usage, I think, reflects a rather elitist view, but was then also picked up by 
late 19th and early 20th century communists to refer to masses in a negative 
way, masses that are being manipulated, dehumanized -- non-legitimized masses so 
to say. That is at least my understanding. You used it in that same way, as I 
read it, and it was irritating to see that in your report dealing with Korean 
protests against U.S. imports etc.
--> http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/MB12Dg01.html
Quote: "The questions are relevant in South Korea, where mobs every few years 
storm through central Seoul driven to a frenzy against the authorities, against 
the American alliance (...)."
Right here is where I would argue that one might better want to provide 
explanations that go BEYOND the case-by-case reports and analysis of such 
reoccurring and ongoing protests, exactly because these protests are reoccurring 
and ongoing. We can all see your point here, whatever vocabulary is used, that 
in your evaluation of the situation you see such demonstrations as being 
overblown and inappropriate etc. Many will share this view. You react to that by 
using a derogative term like "mob" in describing the people protesting -- but 
isn't that done to cover up the lack of an analytical explanation for why all 
these housewives, businessmen, students, and all kind of other people go to the 
streets? EXACTLY here is where I would wish to see some sort of more analytical 
model helping me to understand and put into place what is happening. One can 
just downplay this as some sort of emotional outbreaks and illogical nationalist 
reactions. Yet, if we see this happening in many cities in many former so-called 
third world countries, then such reporting does not help us to understand, I 
think. Also, for making *connections* (may it be within the same country's 
history or to Arabian states in 2011), it would be great to see some structural, 
possibly sociological and/or socioeconomic explanations -- not just some bold 
boom-boom history (my own derogative term here).


Frank


-- --------------------------------------
Frank Hoffmann
http://koreaweb.ws
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