[KS] Chinese "control" over Choson

[Michael Robinson]

Don:

I wonder if you are reading a bit too much of the present into diplomatic 
useage and relations of the 17th century.  Certainly all governments 
(perhaps the U.S. as an exception) have to think about the ramifications of 
their international actions.  I'm thinking and have always thought that the 
way to characterize Korean "independence" has to do with effective 
non-interference.  Tell me if I'm wrong, but the Ch'ing didn't fuss too much 
about what ChosOn was doing after its initial incursions....what in 1627 and 
then a decade so or later.  Would the fact that the Koreans were sending 
missions to the Japanese provoke an invasion from China?  It seems in one of 
the best documented dealings with the Ch'ing (the border issues in the late 
1700s) the Koreans stood rather toe to toe with their Chinese counterparts 
in negotiations.

Mike Robinson
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Baker Don" <ubcdbaker at hotmail.com>
To: <Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 12:07 PM
Subject: [KS] Chinese "control" over Choson


> Mike's point about exaggeration of and over-emphasis on the degree of 
> control China exercised over Korea is a point well-taken. However, we also 
> don't  want to present the Choson dynasty as totally independent. In the 
> little bit of research I've done on the foreign policy of the Choson 
> dynasty, I found that Choson engaged in independent diplomatic relations, 
> but had to hide that fact from the Chinese. I was focusing on early 
> Choson's relations with the Kingdom of the Ryukyus and with Japanese from 
> Kyushu. Every once in a while, I'd run across a statement in the sillok to 
> the effect that "We can't let China find out about this." Has anybody seen 
> evidence of that same need to hide Korea's diplomatic relations with 
> Japanese after 1600? Didn't Korea have to hide from China the fact that it 
> regularly sent envoys to Tokugawa Japan in the 17th and 18th centuries? 
> If that is the case, then we have to conclude the Choson Korea wasn't a 
> totally independent country, since an independent country can conduct its 
> own foreign policy without foreign interference, something Choson could 
> not do.
>
> Don Baker
> Associate Professor, Department of Asian Studies
> Director, Centre for Korean Research
> University of British Columbia
> Vancouver, Canada V6T 1Z2
> dbaker at interchange.ubc.ca
>
>
>
>
>>From: "Michael Robinson" <robime at indiana.edu>
>>Reply-To: Korean Studies Discussion List <Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
>>To: "Korean Studies Discussion List" <Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
>>Subject: Re: [KS] Choson period official dress
>>Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:27:55 -0500
>>
>>Thank you Gari:
>>
>>I'm making a point in the first chapter about Chinese influence in the 
>>structure and look of the Choson government, not its interior operations. 
>>This ms is focused on Korea's twentieth century and the first chapter has 
>>to carry the weight of characterizing the ChosOn system and traditional 
>>society etc.  I'm literally down to a single sentence to handle some 
>>larger ideas. At least this reference won't be off.  We know ChosOn Korea 
>>was Korean, but I'm still surprised at all the references to Chinese 
>>control and dominance over Korea for "centuries and centuries" out there 
>>in the secondary literature.  I don't want to feed into that.  I will try 
>>not to abuse the list as a fact check.....but cutting a corner here and 
>>there is nice.
>>
>>thanks again,  Mike Robinson
>>----- Original Message ----- From: <gkl1 at columbia.edu>
>>To: "Korean Studies Discussion List" <Koreanstudies at koreaweb.ws>
>>Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 11:55 PM
>>Subject: Re: [KS] Choson period official dress
>>
>>
>>>If Henny says so I guess I must've said something about this once,
>>>but it's easier to repeat it than look up what I said. Yes, ChosOn
>>>dynasty court dress was identical with the court dress of the Ming
>>>dynasty, with the exception that the identical dress and emblems,
>>>etc. were two ranks (in the nine-rank scheme) lower in Korea. That
>>>is, the court dress of a Rank I (the highest rank) ChosOn official
>>>was identical to that of a Rank III official at the Ming court.
>>>This means that the last two ChosOn ranks, VIII and IX, had
>>>distinctive Korean designs.
>>>   When Korean official embassies reached the area just outside the
>>>Chaoyang (East) Gate of Peking, they changed into their formal
>>>court dress and marched in a procession into the city and through
>>>the streets to their residence. It is said that those Chinese who
>>>still nourished pro-Ming (and therefore anti-Manchu) sentiments
>>>would come to secretely enjoy the spectacle. There are many stories
>>>in embassy diaries and other casual literature about emotional
>>>scenes with Chinese begging to touch, or even briefly wear, the
>>>Korean formal clothing. Other than this, the only permitted display
>>>of Ming dress that was permitted in Qing China was in the theatre,
>>>since the Peking Opera was essentially a Ming institution, and the
>>>historical character of the stories made the dress of earlier
>>>dynasties appropriate. One consequence of this is that when Korean
>>>officials went through the streets of the capital on their
>>>business, less sophisticated spectators would point and say, "Look!
>>>Actors!"
>>>
>>>Gari Ledyard
>>>
>>>Quoting Michael Robinson <robime at indiana.edu>:
>>>
>>>>Dear List:
>>>>
>>>>It is a small point but I thought someone out there might be more
>>>>up on this than myself.  Were the robes for Choson officials
>>>>patterned after the regalia of the Ming?  I'm saying this in a
>>>>throw away sentence in my new text...but perhaps this is wrong.
>>>>I'm wondering about the evolution of official dress since we are
>>>>dealing with half a millennium here.
>>>>
>>>>Mike Robinson
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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